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A new protocol I have been experimenting with, it can be used for both accutane and PFS sufferers

Discussion in 'Post-Finasteride Syndrome & Accutane Sufferers' started by skorpio88, Nov 10, 2016.

  1. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    First a little bit of background about me:

    I took accutane when I was 14-15, it left me with serious ED as well as caused my hair to shed profusely. Unfortunately when I was around 17-18 I was continuing to lose my hair so I thought I was experiencing male pattern baldness, as a result I decided to go on propecia as well. Predictably this messed my body up even more. Long story short, I have been suffering from the combined side effects of both accutane and propecia for the past 14 years of my life. I am 29 now. Up until about a month or so ago I was suffering from combined accutane and propecia side effects, but since discovering this new protocol I have been experiencing benefits and recovery like nothing I have ever experienced before. Trust me, I have had this problem for the past 14 years of my life, so I have tried just about everything to cure myself, and nothing has really worked for me until I figured out this protocol. The following is a repost of a post that I made on solvepfs.com, so it is mainly referring to PFS throughout the post. However like I said, I suffer from both accutane and propecia side effects, so Im confident that this protocol will work for accutane side effects sufferers as well.

    Due to a recent chain of events and experimentation with a few things, I have stumbled across a new protocol that might be the cure for PFS. (as well as accutane side effects) Basically what my protocol involves is the strategic use of zinc, time, and the body's own homeostasis mechanisms to recover. What caused me to discover this new protocol was that I was recently experimenting with large doses of creatine (1 heaping tablespoon per day which is 20 grams of creatine) and it gave me negative effects within only 15-20 minutes of taking it. (general feeling of being disconnected, slight discomfort, shrinkage and no morning wood) After experimenting with it for a few days and seeing that it was completely counter-productive, it occurred to me that maybe I could use zinc (a known 5AR inhibitor) to possibly reverse the temporary side effects brought on by creatine. (a known 5AR/DHT increaser) So, I took 200 mg of zinc and literally within 15-20 minutes (a surprisingly fast amount of time), all the side effects of creatine had subsided and my entire body was filled with a very warm, connected feeling. Additionally the shrinkage caused by creatine reversed and I woke up with good morning wood the next day. It was this event that caused me to realize the potential utility of zinc. Not just as a mineral supplement, but rather as a means to reliably influence the hormones. So after this discovery, through a few weeks of trial and error, as well as lots of theoretical conjecture, I came up with this new protocol. First of all though, I want to run through a few theories that VAPP (variability and ping protocol) is based on:

    In my opinion there are actually two types of PFS:

    PFS type 1: 5AR/DHT levels are impaired but androgen receptors are still somewhat functional. (They are still abnormal though) People with PFS type 1 respond best to things like creatine, sorghum, weightlifting, etc. Basically anything that boosts 5AR/DHT.

    PFS type 2: 5AR/DHT levels are too high relative to the sensitivity levels of the androgen receptors. People with PFS type 2 respond best to things that lower 5AR/DHT levels, such as zinc, marijuana or even things like saw palmetto and microdoses of propecia. (wouldnt recommend the last one though)

    On this topic, whether you are PFS type 1 or 2 is not fixed necessarily. By that I mean that if you are PFS type 2 but overuse zinc, marijuana, saw palmetto etc then you can lower your 5AR/DHT levels too much which can cause a crash and make you become PFS type 1. Likewise, if you are PFS type 1 but overuse creatine, sorghum, tribulus etc then it will make you crash and you will become PFS type 2.


    So with me, I strongly believe that I have PFS type 2. This is because I respond poorly to creatine (and really anything else that boosts 5AR/DHT) but respond fairly well to zinc. Also what I deduced from my experience is that when it comes to PFS type 2, it is true that your 5AR/DHT levels are too high. What is also true is that for your androgen receptors, they have a set range of DHT levels that they are sensitive to. If your DHT levels are over or below this range then you will not be able to utilize DHT properly. For people with PFS type 2, they simply have too much DHT relative to the sensitivity range for their androgen receptors, thus their bodies cant properly respond to the DHT. So for me, I had initially boosted my DHT levels too high by using creatine and it made my DHT levels out of the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. Thus giving me side effects. However by taking zinc, it had a speedy effect in reducing my DHT levels to within the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. This in term reversed the side effects brought on by creatine, as well as giving me very strong morning wood the next day. I want to add that from my subsequent experiments with zinc I have noticed that if I take too much then my morning wood also goes away. In my opinion this is further evidence for the theory that there is an optimal DHT range for the androgen receptors. It is not simply the case that those with PFS have completely inactive/desensitized androgen receptors.


    At this point, through a lot of experimentation with zinc and keeping the above point in mind, I begin toying with the idea of using zinc to properly modulate my 5AR/DHT levels in sync with my body's own natural homeostatic cycles in order to better align my DHT levels with the sensitivity range of my androgen receptors. So in order to achieve this, I began supplementing with 100 mg of zinc every other day. I would do this until my morning wood would begin to get weak or even go away. At this point I would stop taking zinc for 3-5 days and then after 3-5 days was up then I would start taking zinc again. The reason for taking zinc every other day was to hopefully keep my DHT levels within a certain range, and not have them go too far up or down. However by utilizing this alternate day zinc protocol it actually lead me to discover another interesting phenomena which I will explain more in depth in the paragraph below:


    I'll start out my explanation with an example. So if you take zinc, its going to temporarily depress your 5AR/DHT levels, however as the effect of the zinc begins to wear off, your body will naturally begin to regenerate its 5AR/DHT in order to restore homeostasis. Likewise, if you take creatine its going to temporarily spike your 5AR/DHT levels but afterwards your body will naturally bring your 5AR/DHT levels back down. That being said, it is through the process of the body attempting to return to its baselines that you can "hack" the body and change the baselines. For lack of a better term, I will refer to this mechanism as "variability". It is through consistently varying the levels of certain hormones and then allowing them to briefly recover that you can change your baselines. That being said though, when attempting to utilize variability its very important that you allow the body to attempt to return to its baselines through its own natural mechanisms. If you try to artificially induce variability by using multiple contradicting supplements to manipulate hormone levels then you actually reduce the effectiveness of variability. Thus you should not mix and match your supplements. IE use zinc and creatine at the same time. The same goes for concurrently taking zinc and lifting weights. I'll elaborate more on this later though. The important thing is to just manually adjust the levels of a certain hormone and then to let the body handle the rest. (IE Only take a given supplement every other day.) The mistake that we have been making up until now is that we were so eager to recover that we were taking supplements on a daily basis because we thought it would be more beneficial when actually it appears that it is more beneficial to take supplements every other day. Anyways, it is through variability that I feel like you can actually set an optimal baseline for your hormones.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
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  2. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    That being said, I will now elaborate on the androgen receptor sensitivity concept that I was referring to earlier. Ok, so imagine that you have an arbitrary DHT scale that goes between 0 and 1000 units. Meanwhile, the androgen receptor sensitivity range (ARSR) is lets say somewhere between 400 and 800 units of DHT. In the ARSR, 400 and 800 units are the minimum and maximum thresholds, while 600 units is the optimal/normal point. Additionally lets say that for every 100 mg of zinc you take, it lowers your DHT units by 100, for every day that you don't take zinc your DHT levels regenerate by 50 units and finally a heaping tablespoon of creatine raises your DHT by 100 units. So for me, lets assume that my baseline DHT is around 800 units. Its barely within range of the ARSR. When I was taking creatine for two days its bumped my DHT up to 1000 units, well out of range of the ARSR. Thus I began to experience negative effects from DHT since my body could no longer use it at that level. However once I took 200 mg of zinc it brought my DHT back down to 800 units which is the upper threshold of the ARSR and I started to get morning wood again. Well, once I came back into range of the ARSR I began taking 100 mg of zinc every other day. This in turn caused my DHT levels to zig zag up and down in a downwards directions towards the optimal/normal point as well as towards the minimum threshold. While this was happening, my morning wood was intensifying to a very noticeable degree. Much more than what is normal for supplementing zinc (on a daily basis) which i had done in the past. So theoretically speaking, by utilizing the supplementation of zinc in an alternating day scheme, I was able to simultaneously induce variability within the ARSR and eventually at some point I was able to repeatedly "ping" the optimal/normal point. However, since I wasn't exactly aware of the mechanism behind what I was doing, I wasn't able to precisely capitalize and optimize the pinging thus I would sometimes bring my DHT levels so low that they passed the minimum threshold and then I would stop getting morning wood. In my opinion, it is the part where I "pinged" the optimal/normal point which sent a signal to the body and let it know that this was the new DHT/Androgen receptor sensitivity ratio that should be used for homeostasis.


    Thus as you can see, there are two concurrent factors working synergistically here. First of all you are using variability to normalize the body's 5AR/DHT levels, and then you are using the pinging action to signal to the body the optimal DHT/androgen receptor sensitivity ratios. I want to add that the intersection of inducing variability within the androgen receptor sensitvity range is also probably extremely helpful as well.


    (I also want to add that the math I used in my example is probably not a precise example of what is going on in the body, I just used all those numbers to give a clearer idea of how this mechanism works. So dont get too caught up in the numbers.)


    At this point when I stop getting morning wood, I stop using zinc for a few days (3-5 days) and then I start using zinc again after a few days have passed. Obviously what is going on in this stage of the protocol is that I am allowing my 5AR/DHT levels to regenerate back into range of the ARSR, so I begin to get positive effects from DHT again. At this point I start another cycle. Theoretically if I keep doing this it should gradually optimize my 5AR/DHT baselines as well as optimize my DHT/Androgen receptor sensitivity ratio.


    So that is the basic rundown of the protocol. Now I want to cover a few other points:


    -First of all, what I described above is the basic protocol that you should follow if you have PFS type 2. But what if you have PFS type 1? If you have PFS type 1, then the same protocol as PFS type 2 should work except instead of using 5AR/DHT inhibitors, you will be using 5AR/DHT boosters. So instead of zinc, lets say that you will be using creatine. So as with the previous zinc protocol, you will load X amount of creatine for a couple of days until you get morning wood; at this point you will supplement X amount of creatine every other day until you begin to get some negative side effects from creatine, at this point you will back off for a few days, and then you will start using creatine again after a few days have passed. You will keep doing this until you finally recover. I want to add that the protocol for PFS type 1 is theoretical in nature, I dont know if it will work or not but I believe it should. Even if it doesnt, its not a big deal because you can just overload on 5AR/DHT boosters and purposely make yourself crash so that you become PFS type 2, at which point you can then utilize the zinc protocol instead.


    -As I already stated above, but needs definite re-emphasis is that while doing VAPP, you should only be using ONE supplement. The entire VAP protocol relies on listening to your body, and getting cues from it that let you know when you should continue or cease using X supplement. This is much much harder to do when you are constantly raising and lowering your 5AR/DHT levels by using various different supplements or even doing weightlifting. The VAP protocol alone is sufficient to cure you within a month or two; and the whole reason you might be taking different supplements/lifting weights in the first place is to cure/alleviate PFS symptoms. So it wouldn't really make sense to delay your recovery by trying to rely on too many different things at once. Trust me on this one, since Ive started using VAPP ive quit weightlifting and stopped using all supplements besides zinc. VAPP alone actually gets me more benefits than weightlifting and a bunch of supplements combined.


    -I don't think that diet, smoking cigarettes, or drinking alcohol really affects the effectiveness of VAPP. While i'm doing this protocol I pretty much eat whatever I want to, smoke cigarettes and drink on the weekends. (like getting really drunk, but I do this every weekend anyways) When it comes to those three things, I think that the only one that you might want to watch out for is drinking alcohol since it does affect your hormone levels. HOWEVER, if you are only drinking large amounts of alcohol on the weekend then I think its effect is negligible. Heavily drinking during the rest of the week however would probably negatively impact the effectiveness of VAPP due to its effect of spiking the hormones.


    Here are the basic steps for the protocol summed up:


    1. First determine if you are PFS type 1 or PFS type 2

    2. If you are already getting morning wood then you can go ahead and start supplementing X supplement every other day. If you are not getting morning wood yet then I recommend that you "load" on X supplement on a daily basis until you begin to get morning wood. Once you begin to get morning wood, then you can start supplementing X supplement every other day.

    3. Take X supplement every other day until you stop getting morning wood. At this point stop taking X supplement and wait for 3-5 days so that your body can readjust. Whether or not morning wood reappears on its own appears to be contingent upon how severe your PFS is. Either way it doesn't matter, after 3-5 days your hormone levels should have fallen back into the ARSR so you can begin taking X supplement again every other day in order to restart the cycle of variability and pinging.

    4. Repeat step 3 until you are cured.


    So basically here is what my protocol looks like for me:

    1.I take 100 mg of zinc every other day until I stop getting morning wood. (This usually takes 7-10 days, remember you are taking zinc every other day, do not take zinc on a daily basis)

    2.when my morning wood starts to become weak I stop taking zinc and wait 3-5 days until my morning wood starts to come back.

    3.When my morning wood starts coming back strong again I repeat step 1.

    *After doing one or two cycles, you may notice that 100 mg of zinc every other day is too much. In that case just go down to 50 mg of zinc every other day.


    So basically keep doing this until you get healed. So far I am doing this and I am experiencing tons of benefits. I have only been doing this for a few weeks but I am feeling better now than I have in 14 years:

    -very intense morning wood (the intensity of the morning wood seems to come from my prostate itself if that makes any sense.)
    -slightly increased/new facial hair growth
    -slight increase in acne
    -tight/toned feeling in prostate
    -my erections are a lot more "resilient" now. By that I mean that when I get an erection it is more firm and if I try to push my erection downwards, there is more resistance and less play. So I am not really suffering so badly from PFS induced "floppy boners".
    -slightly increased appetite
    -very very engaging dreams. I dont get these every night but ever since starting VAPP I occasionally get these intense dreams where even after I wake up I still think im in the dream even though I can clearly see with my eyes that I am in the actual world and not in a dream. Its kind of like this odd blurring between reality and the dreamstate. Does this make any sense?
    -dramatically increased flaccid size. I can actually feel my penis resting on either one of my thighs these days, as opposed to it being so small that I dont feel anything when im walking around.
    -increased mental cognition/more mental sharpness. I have less trouble writing papers, or communicating in foreign languages + understanding foreign language when it is being spoken to me now. The difference is slight but noticeable.

    if you all have any questions feel free to pm me
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2016
  3. clayton95

    clayton95 Member

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    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  4. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    sundown, its zinc gluconate. Yeah no problem, ill probably chime in on that thread as well. I just hope to spread this protocol far and wide if it is indeed a possible cure
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2016
  5. Spikehd

    Spikehd New Member

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    The 2 types of PFS theory seems accurate. I think it can be applied to non pfs cases as well.

    Have you thought about full blood tests? Maybe a baseline, and one on zinc?
     
  6. FindingDoryTerribleMovie

    FindingDoryTerribleMovie New Member

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    So far this has been working! I did a similar method in the past; however, the positive effects wore off after ~three months. I never did the 3-5 day break hiatus though. So hopefully this works!

    Anyway, I'm new here. If you guys could point me in the right direction to understand wtf is going on with me post tane, please let me know.
     
  7. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    I havent done blood tests before, I am curious what they would show though.
     
  8. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    glad to hear that! Can you share your experience with the protocol so far?
     
  9. FindingDoryTerribleMovie

    FindingDoryTerribleMovie New Member

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    I'm currently taking 75mg every other day as opposed to everyday (zinc makes my stomach hurt if I take 100). The effects so far: increased appetite, increased libido, morning wood almost everyday, less anxiety, and ALL THE DREAMS. I know I should do the 3-5 day break but this has been working so far. So until it stops, I'm sticking with the every other day zinc. Also, I do have hair loss (diffuse thinning) because of Accutane. I'll let you know if this method has an effect on my hair as well. I'm not too worried about hair loss because I will just get a hair piece if this thinning gets too bad. I just want my raging erections back pre-tane. Fortunately, Im not even on the norwood scale yet. I have two doctor's appointments coming up to get my hormones checked. I will update.

    By the way, how do you feel about getting off. I never masturbate (no fap), but I do **** my girlfriend everyday/every other day. I don't know if that plays a role in what is going on.

    Finally, if we could keep in touch via email that would be awesome. You seem like you know your stuff.
     
  10. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    75 mg is fine, I think when it comes to the actual dosages, people should just use what feels comfortable to them. I think anywhere from 50 mg to 100 mg of zinc should do the trick.

    As for the 3-5 day break, you only do this once you stop getting morning wood. (IE your DHT levels fall out of the androgen receptor sensitivity range). So as long as you're still getting morning wood then its ok to keep taking zinc.

    Getting off is fine, I mean physiologically speaking when you ejaculate it is supposed to spike your T/DHT, but if you're taking zinc then your DHT is going to get lowered anyways, so it doesnt matter if you slightly spike it through sexual activity or not.

    Can you post your story? Like how long you took accutane for, how long you have had side effects, etc
     
  11. FindingDoryTerribleMovie

    FindingDoryTerribleMovie New Member

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    Here is the story (I'm in my early 20s):

    ED
    Took the tane in April for only 3 weeks. I had the normal sides: dry everywhere, joint pain, etc. Then suddenly, on the first day of the third week, I had a "hot flash" on my forehead. Lasted for 10m, its was unbearable. Never had one of these pre-tane. Further, when I got home for the day, I went to engage in some love making, couldn't get hard AT ALL. My dick felt completely disconnected from my body. I have never had problems getting it up EVER. I had whisky dick here and there in the past, but every guy has that.

    I stopped taking the tane immediately. I wanted to light that bs on fire. Then, I waited a couple months thinking that my erections would come back. NOPE. Also, my libido plummeted. Consequently, in June, I started taking Zinc. About 25mg everyday. Got my erections back, but there weren't as powerful pre-tane. Been doing this since I saw your post then I started taking it every other day at 75mg. Erections are better than before, but not as good/frequent pre-tane. Also, I started NoFap (essentially no porn/masturbating) and that worked wonders for a good 3 weeks back in September.

    Hair Loss
    In August, I noticed that the back of my head was thinning. I brushed it off, until this month where I realized my entire head is noticeably thinner. I can see my scalp now. I used to have really thick, oily hair. Now, I don't wet my hair for 3 days and it is still dry. Can't believe this hair loss is so extreme.

    Misc.
    In the summer, I also started getting really bad stomach pains which finally went away in August. Probably some gastrointestinal problems that were temporary. Also, I had some MRIs pre and post tane for a chest tear that I had. Before, I had no gyno. Now, Doc just diagnosed me with gyno from my MRI last month.

    Closing
    Funny thing is that I never had bad acne. My derm just pushed it on me. She actually said: "why don't you try it, I've had hundreds of patients and only stopped it twice because of some football injuries." Kill me please. I had about 2-3 zits max on my face. No backne. Forgot, the hot flashes stopped about 2 weeks after I got off the tane.

    If you want me to explain anything else let me know. I just want to get back to how I was before. This is crazy. I only took the tane for 3 weeks. Im 5'10 175 btw and was on 40mg a day (20 morning 20 at night).
     
  12. clayton95

    clayton95 Member

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    Scorpio, are you still following this protocol and seeing gradual improvements, or is it too early to say?
     
  13. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    Im currently experimenting with a slight modification to the original protocol. so as a result this has kept me from seeing the results of my protocol if I had been following it consistently. My experience with this protocol so far though is that the improvements come in spurts, they never seem to come on predictably or consistently, although while doing the protocol your general baseline will be consistently elevated. However this is pretty much the same way it was when I got sides from propecia or accutane, the side effects from those medicines would start out really mild and stay that way for a while and then they always hit me suddenly and it wasnt a gradual process. It was like suddenly going from 5 mph to 60 mph. I suspect the recovery process will be much the same way.
     
  14. FindingDoryTerribleMovie

    FindingDoryTerribleMovie New Member

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    Update:

    I completely crashed out of nowhere. Method stopped working. So, I am now going to supplement L-Arginine, stacked with Glutamine, Lysine, Ornithine, and Ginseng and see where that takes me. When I crashed, I crashed hard. Limp dick plus low libido.

    Edit: I also drank heavily, did some coke, and smoked some marijuana the week before the crash. I don't know if that had any effect.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
  15. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

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    Before you crashed was the protocol still working? Were you still getting morning wood or was it gradually getting weaker before the crash?

    Sorry to hear that man. How long have you been crashed for? In my experience when I drink a lot, I usually don't have morning wood for the next two days. I wonder if maybe you are just experiencing a slightly more severe form of that. It is possible that a combination of alcohol, cocaine and marijuana might have had some kind of negative effect on you. I know with certainty that alcohol and marijuana affect hormone levels, Im pretty sure coke does too but I dont know its exact effect though.

    With regards to your stack, IMO you should just try one thing at a time. It sounds to me like you're throwing a bunch of things at your problem at once, which is counterproductive because you don't know what thing is helping you, what is (potentially) hurting you and what is doing nothing at all.

    Assuming that you did crash by using zinc, I think that means that your problem is probably that your DHT is probably too low now from sustained zinc usage. IE you are now PFS type 1. (assuming that you don't recover naturally from your crash) If you have changed to PFS type 1 then I advise you try things like creatine or sorghum to boost your DHT. Above all though I would give it some more time and not use any supplements at all and see how your body reacts. The most important thing is establishing what your true baseline is and to work from there. Anyways, let me know whats up

    hey I just saw your email, im going to correspond with you there
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016

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