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For Those on Thyroid

Discussion in 'Male Health & HRT' started by smitty4, Jan 23, 2008.

  1. smitty4

    smitty4 Member

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    Thyroid & Neurotransmitters

    I thought this might generate some interesting discussion:

    I am hypothyroid. I also used to wake with night sweats. I saw a physician who indicated that the night sweats were the result of being hypothyroid causing. The theory is that I have a mitochondrial issue where my mitochondria do not readily using the thyroid that is present. Body temperatures naturally drop a little at night when people sleep. In my case, the additional drop in temperature caused my Norepinephrine to dramatically increase in an attempt to keep my body temps from going too low. The increased Norepinephrine would cause the sweating. It was also the cause of my waking up, since Norepinephrine is stimulating and can increase blood pressure, heart rate, etc. Granted urine labs do actually measure the amount of neurotransmitters in the brain, but the labs I did seemed to support the theory. The doctor said that my Serotonin and Dopamine were about half of what one would expect and my Norepinephrine was sky high.

    I gradually increased my Armour dosage to where I am now at 5 grains a day. I also take 25mg of Iodoral per day. The night sweats are now pretty rare and I my sleep seems to be deeper and more restful. My body temperature, however, remains a little low (average 96.5 or so).

    I have read where doctors who agree with the practices of Broda Barnes, M.D. and Mark Starr, M. D. pretty much believe that labs should not be the main guide when prescribing Armour. Rather relief of patients’ symptoms should be the guide. It made sense to me that if I did indeed have mitochondrial issues, then I could very well still have hypothyroid symptoms, even though my labs indicated that was not the case. Anyway, when my PCP recently was doing my routine labs, I asked him to check my thyroid levels. Unfortunately, he did not do free T3 or T3 at all for that matter. Here are the results:

    TSH <0.01 (0.35 – 5.50)
    Total Thyroxine (T4) 10.4 (4.5 – 12.0)
    Free T4 2.09 (0.70 – 1.53)
    T3 Uptake 44 (24 -39)
    Free Thyroxine Index 4.6 (1.2 – 4.9)

    I shared the results with the doctor who prescribes the Armour. He indicated that using TSH to indicate whether or not someone has too much thyroid hormone is like using LH as an indication of whether someone has too much Testosterone.

    On a side note, I have been prescribed 40mg of Test twice per week. I am also prescribed 250IU of HCG on those days, but lately finding that has been pretty impossible to find in my neck of the woods. I live in the sticks.
     
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Living in the sticks have its charm, I envy you (on some days).
    As long as you have UPS and/or USPS service ask (call) you doc to call
    womens intntnl, three days latter you should have all you need, not only HCG but many other medicines. They are also good enough to send you a number of refills so you can save on shipping cost.

    Check on diabetics site, hocks, they supply my favorite, smallest available syringes, 31Ga 5/16" long 3/10cc.

    Before you do all above, give dr John a chance, he is working his tail off to get this services to us.

    When I see words like
    mitochondrial, Serotonin, Dopamine, Norepinephrine

    I say

    http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/findsystems/nutrition.html

    NutrEval
    .
    .
    Do not call your doc, e-mail him with well thought and researched request.
    That is what I do.
    Saves your and doc's time.
    Next time, sign his sign-up sheet twice, put the date of you e-mail on sign-up sheet.
    .
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2008
  3. smitty4

    smitty4 Member

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    Dr. John ROCKS! I had the privilege of being one of Dr. John’s earliest HRT patients. Unfortunately…after he had me tuned up for years, I thought I could just continue with the protocol that was established with someone else. Things have a way of coming full circle and I imagine that I will likely find myself making the trip The Man Cave. :)
     
  4. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    So that is why I woke up in a sweat and my heart was running away Dr.'s told me this was a panic attack yet Xanax did not help but Arimidex did. Now I am up to 4 grains of armour and found my ferritin levels were very low so now on Iron and Iodine just started on one pill next week I will be doing 2 pills. My iron levels have come up a little and I started losing weight in the last 7 weeks I am down 28.5 lbs I feel the low Iron was keeping my Armour from working we will see on my next blood test. If FT3 and 4 are not up higher I will go to 4.5 grains of armour.
     
  5. smitty4

    smitty4 Member

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    I really think that neurotransmitters are probably the missing piece of the puzzle for a lot of the guys who are tuned up HRT-wise, but whose libido still is not what they think it should be.
     
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    YES

    except neurotransmitters should be tested indirectly.

    If what they are supposed accomplish is too much or lacking, that is the red flag.
     
  7. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Well I can't say much about libido I am 64 and as long is it makes a tent in the morning I am happy. I try to tell guys if your wood works your E2 is good. But they want to go on about testing and rato's all one needs is night time and morning wood as long as you have this even if your libido is low just make it a point to use it. After all it still feels good low libido or not.
     
  8. scottyo

    scottyo New Member

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    On bloodwork my free t4 is right around perfect and my free t3 is actually a bit high, but i still occasionally feel hypo symtoms and my bodytemp still hovers around 98.2-98.4. I added methyb12 shots a while ago because we saw that was a problem....I had ferritin checked awhile ago and it seemed ok. Anyone got ideas on why its still not fully clicking? Or do most people think temps at 98.6 are bs?
     
  9. scottyo

    scottyo New Member

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    On bloodwork my free t4 is right around perfect and my free t3 is actually a bit high, but i still occasionally feel hypo symtoms and my bodytemp still hovers around 98.2-98.4. I added methyb12 shots a while ago because we saw that was a problem....I had ferritin checked awhile ago and it seemed ok. 116 on a range from 22-322. Anyone got ideas on why its still not fully clicking? Or do most people think temps at 98.6 are bs?
     
  10. wondering

    wondering Active Member

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    if Thyroid numbers look good and still feeling Hypo... could be Adrenals. Have you looked inot this? Sorry havent digested entire thread.

     
  11. hardasnails1973

    hardasnails1973 Banned

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    Where are neurotransmitters created ?
    In the liver thorugh proper metabolic processes of amino acid with specific intervention with minerals and other nutrients

    Ask your self this about depression
    1. with out amino acids there would be no neurotransmitters
    2. Without proper food there would be protien
    3. with out proper stomach acids there would be no amino acids
    4. With out proper proper pancreatic enyzme there would be no indviusal peptidee
    5. With out a healthy gut barrier there yould be no uptake through the mucosa into the liver
    6. with out proper liver functions and coenyzme reactions there would be no proper metabolism of amiino acid in to brain transmitters
    7. with out proper receptor sensitivity they would not be ultilized by the body.
    8 with out proper hormone levels neurotramistters would be unbalanced provided they were create in the first place.
    9. With out proper methyation neurotramistters would basiclly be useless
     
  12. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    Smitty, good stuff. I see Dr. Mariano, and he has the same theory. I tend to get very warm at night. I've always slept with minimum clothing, with the fan on high, and with the bedroom temperature below 68 degrees farenheit. It so happens that my basal temp, before thyroid treatment was 95 degree. Also, my catecholamines (norepinephrine) were jacked through the roof. Dr. M said that my catecholamines are increasing in desperate attempt to keep warm. He said that keeping the room so cool is the WORST thing that I can do. He recommended keeping the fan off, and even getting a heated blanket, so that my body doesnt need to generate heat to keep the comforter, and, in turn, my body, warm. He said that once I acclimated, I should sleep a lot better, as there would not be adrenalin coursing through my veins as I attempt to fall asleep.

    Indicentally, Dr. M suggested that guys like us don't do well with sleep meds, because we resist the sleep med by a similar phenomenon -- cranking up adrenalin. Perhaps the sleep med lowers body temperature, which cause an adrenal response to stay warm. Just a thought.

    You may also want to get a heated blanket. And I think you need to get your waking basal temp up around 97.8. 96.5 is WAY too low, suggestive of hypothyroidism. Not sure if you need more armour, or more cortisol. In my case, I needed both. You need cortisol to carry the thyroid to your cells, from your blood, as I'm sure you already know.

    Thanks for broaching a good dialogue.

    Best,
    J
     
  13. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I think the consensus in medicine is that the only way to accurately test neurotransmitters is via brain biopsy.

    That is why Dr. Nordt of Rhein does not provide them.
     
  14. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

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    By your labs, I ownder where all that Armour is going. 5 grains is a whalloping dose, and it isn;t really showing up.

    This makes me think of a hyperexcretory situation.

    Perhaps all the extra thyroid is speeding up the breakdown and excretion of thyroid hormone.

    Did you step up the Armour in increments smaller than, say, six weeks?
     
  15. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

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    The New Man Cave is right off the highway, at the East Lansing/Lansing border.
     
  16. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

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    We now know that actual average body temnperature is not 98.6. It is about a degree lower.

    Kinda throws a wrench into some lay theories out there, doesn't it?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2008
  17. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

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    This is why guys will say they take a sleeping pill, yet their eyes pop wide open at 2AM. The medication is wearing off enough for the increased excitatory hormones to over-run them.

    A loose analogy is what happens to some when they drink heavily. The natural "speed" is left when the booze has worn off enough, and they wake up totally geeked (and thirsty!). That also means it's going to be a long day tomorrow. lol
     
  18. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    "This is why guys will say they take a sleeping pill, yet their eyes pop wide open at 2AM. The medication is wearing off enough for the increased excitatory hormones to over-run them."

    Dr. Crisler, do you have any suggestions for guys with delayed sleep onset?

    If left to my own vices, I'd go to bed at 4 a.m. every day, irrespective of when I went to sleep. While Ambien and Lunesta (as well as 5HTP) help, they now take quite a while to get me to sleep. I assume they've warn on my gaba receptors. Even when I feel like I slept pretty well, I wake up feeling nonrestored.

    HC has helped some. I wake up feel a little more rested. But it hasnt resolved my sleep issue by a long shot. Nor did the CPAP machine -- I have upper airway resistance syndrome (a lesser form of apnea, more common in people that are not overweight) as well as alpha intrusions in the middle of the night.

    I just began HCG and T cyp yesterday. I've read that this can help restore regular sleep -- though I know there is a risk that it can exacerbate apnea. I'm hitting the thyroid and the adrenals, so this is the last piece of my puzzle for now. I hope it's the fix I am desperately in search for.

    Thanks for your thoughts.

    J
     
  19. smitty4

    smitty4 Member

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    Increased the dose by .5 grains ever couple weeks or 1.0 grain per month. I was at 5 grains for several months before the labs were drawn.

    I just had a new round of labs drawn and it appears that I'm sort of a mess. My liver appears to be messing up. Here are some of the reslts (sorry...I can't figure out how to format in an manner that is easy to read):

    Glucose 103 (70-110mg/dL)
    Blood Urea Nitrogen 15 (10-20mg/dL)
    Creatinine 0.9 (0.6-1.3mg/dL)
    Sodium 140 (130-145mEq/L)
    Potassium 3.9 (3.5-5.1mEq/L)
    Chloride 104 (98-107mEq/L)
    Carbonde Dioxide 29.6 (21.0-32.0mEq/L)
    Calcium 8.6 (8.6-10.1mg/dL)
    Total Protein 6.9 (6.4-8.2 g/dL)
    Albumin 3.4 (3.5-5.8 g/dL)
    AST/SGOT 85 (1-35 U/L)
    ALT/SGPT 107 (30-65 U/L)
    ALK PHOS 68 (50-136 U/L)
    BILIRUBIN 1.03 (0.00-1.00)

    TSH <0.01 (0.35-5.50 uIU/mL)
    Free T4 1.20 (0.70-1.53 ng/dL)
    Total T4 8.0 (4.5-12.0 ug/dL)
    Free T3 6.1 (2.3-4.2 pg/mL)
    Total T3 206 (85-205 ng/dL)

    Folate >24.0 (> 2.8 ng/dL)
    Vitamin B12 1244 (211-911 pg/mL)
    Vitamin A 70 (30-90 ug/dL)
    Vitamin D 25-Hydroxy 21.8 (32.0-100.0 ng/mL)

    Cortisol 10.52 (4.30-22.40)
    Estradiol 6 (E2) 23 (pg/mL)
    DHEA 288 (107-745 NG/dL)
    Progesterone 0.4 (0.3-1.2 ng/mL)
    Testosterone 851 (241-827 ng/dL)
    Pregnenolone, MS 48 (<20-150)

    At first the thought was that I might have gall bladder issues. I had an ultrasound done and it was clean, but my PCP indicated that I still might have some form of gall bladders issues. He gave me AcipHex and my monthly or so “attack” issues have not reoccurred…but it has only been a month or so. I do think the AcipHex is working though.

    I wonder about the protein level. Like a lot of guys here, I take in a lot of protein…yet my levels are near the bottom of range. I also have noticed rather foamy urine, which I guess could indicated I am peeing out my protein.

    As far as the liver goes...I guess the plan is to avoid any alcohol and have it done again a few months. I KNEW I shouldn't have started drinking again...even if it was only a couple times!
     
  20. hardasnails1973

    hardasnails1973 Banned

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    Address issues at hand
    1. vitamin D defieincy - SEVERE affecting your calcium uptake, magneisum defieincy as well is also in there. With out vitamin D there is no magnesium uptake as well. INsulin resistance or imbalnaces would be prime suspect. One thing affects the other..

    2. Elevated folate serum - not being converted to biological folate (CNS defieincy)

    3. DHEA levels suck - low dhea can parellel magnesium majority of time

    4. cortisol- Levels to low -24 hour urine cortisol test

    5. hyperthyroidsm - could be affecting calcium metabolism and bone density via low calcium levels
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2008

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