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Help with thyroid/adrenals

Discussion in 'Male Health & HRT' started by jinxie, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    So, I am now up to 2.5 grains of Armour. For adrenal support, I take Isocort (3-2-1), as well as Advair in the morning; I also take licorrice root in the a.m., and Fo-ti twice a day.

    The good news is that my morning basal temp is 97.5 (up from 95.7), and I am not noticing any bad side effects. However, I cant say that I feel that much better. I felt great the first three days of Armour, at 1 grain (I was taking 50 mcg of Synthroid, previously).

    Here is the data regarding my adrenals, prior to initiating thyroid therapy:

    Blood plasma cortisol 19.3, which I understand is borderline, even though towards the high side of the "normal range." (The Advair that I was taken may have skewed that.)

    Morning saliva cortisol was 5 (range 13-24). Extremely depressed. Midnight is extremely elevated at 8 (range 1-4), the highest of the day for me. Circadian rhythm is wacked. I have a delayed sleep phase syndrome and tend to sleep best from 4 a.m. to noon, if left to my vices.

    ACTH is 47 (at the very high end of the range).

    DHEA was normal according to saliva, and low normal according to blood plasma.

    I would imagine that I am adequately adrenally supported, since I am not crashing. Then again, it seems that I would be feeling better, at least the first several days after I increase another 1/2 grain.

    I am also hypogonadal (secondary -- pituitary issue). My doc was hopeful that the thyroid treatment would iron out the testosterone issue. I would imagine that this could be part of the problem. But still, I am confounded that I am not feeling WAY better. The doc seemed so sure, and those first 3 days were like a honeymoon -- no brain fog, and I had my short-term memory back.

    Any ideas?

    Incidentally, I did just suffer a death in the family, so I have been under a lot of stress.

    Thanks a million for any help.
     
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Yeah;

    whats you iron and iodine?
     
  3. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    Iron and Ferritin are completely normal. Iodine, Vit A, Vit D, B-12, and preg are all low, and being supplmented. I take iodine drops twice a day, in addition to adding a fair amount of sea salt to food. Thanks a lot.
     
  4. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Normal iron is relative.
    At first I thought I was normal.

    Ferritin=28(20-380)ng/dL
    http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ferritin/
    LE’s Optimal Range: 50–150 ng/mL

    I also thought that I have a plenty of B12

    Vitamin B12=1248(200-1100) pg/mL
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2008
  5. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Here is how I did it.
    http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=24
    I found the isocort was helping but not doing the job today I do 10mgs cortef in the morning at 5am and 2 grains of armour I do my shots T or HCG and go back to bed when I get up at 8am I am feeling much better. I eat and do 5mgs more then at 1pm I do 1 grain of armour and 5mgs of Cortef and at 6pm for dinner. I went up on the armour slow took about a yr. to get to this dose. I would go up 15 mgs. and hold 6 weeks test and go up 15mgs and so on. I later found out my Ferritin is low and just finished my first box of iron pills. I am doing much better and my levels come up from 18 to 24 still need to get to over 70. I am thinking my armour is working much better do to adding iron. So I am holding at 4 grains until my next blood test is my FT3 and FT4 are still low I will add more armour. Just doing the Iron in the last 6 weeks I have lost 26 lbs. so I am not doing anything different just feel better and think my thyroid meds are doing the job to lose this much weight.
     
  6. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    My iron and Ferritin are optimal.

    I'm not sure what the problem is. Perhaps it's the low test, I dunno. I dont think I need all the HC. I should be getting enough already.

    Thanks.
     
  7. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    You need to stress dose HC taking 5 to 10mgs when you feel like this did you start feeling like this after the death in the family. I have talked to people that went into adrenal falure from a death of a loved one and ended up in the hosp.
     
  8. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Sorry what are your Testosterone and E2 levels if your low all the thyroid and adrenal meds in the world are not going to get your Testosterone levels up. You are secondary so it can well be your pituitary is not sending the LH to your testis to make T get on TRT.
     
  9. wondering

    wondering Active Member

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    Doesnt ur paragraph below indicate Adrenal issues that may go beyond Isocort?....

    ==========================
    Morning saliva cortisol was 5 (range 13-24). Extremely depressed. Midnight is extremely elevated at 8 (range 1-4), the highest of the day for me. Circadian rhythm is wacked. I have a delayed sleep phase syndrome and tend to sleep best from 4 a.m. to noon, if left to my vices.
     
  10. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    I take Advair, and taking HC at 25 mg would place me way beyond the physiological dose that Jefferies recommends.

    As for stress dosing, I did this with the Isocort. Was not taking it until the death.

    Re Testosterone, T is 365, and it has already been confirmed that I am secondary based on LH of 4.9 and FSH of 1.6. FSH is in the gutter and it is more reliable giving the pulising release of LH. I am 37. E2 is 20, optimal.

    As I've mentioned before, Dr. Mariano did not want to treat the gonad issue until after we gave Armour a chance. I'm pretty certain that the Armour is not going to resolve the issue, and dont know how Armour could correct the failure of FSH and LH to upregulate Test, tho I would imagine it is possible given that it affects the entire metabolic system.

    I also have a varicocele, and my left testicle has shrunk about 40% or so.

    Note, I've been taking trib, and am about to start Indolplex, and it has caused my testicles to grow and firm up by a fair measure. I am just doing this to hold me over, until I start the HCG.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    J
     
  11. wondering

    wondering Active Member

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    ok... didnt know u were seeing Dr. Mariano and he certainly knows infinitely more than me so.. I guess my advice would be ... be patient... believe me I am going thru my own trials and know how hard that can be. But once under care of a good dr.. guess thats what we need to do

    take care and good luck.

     
  12. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Dr. M believes treating Adrenals and Thyroid will bring up Testosterone levels but in your case I don't think so and I am with Dr. John on this. It can take a dam long time to get Adrenals and Thyroid undercontrol in the mean time you suffer. I am secondary was treated as primary for 23 yrs I felt a lot better on TRT then even better treating my low Cortisol and Thyroid levels. But let me tell you no way would doing this the way your doing it would I be hear now. TRT helped a good 75% of my problems It is just crazy to not treat your Secondary Hypogonadism. I feel this will hold you back from doing better after all your Adrenals are not bad they just don't get the message to make more Cortisol same for your Thyroid.

    Dr. John feels treat the low testsoterone and if things get better come off it.
     
  13. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    Thanks Phil. I can appreciate Dr. M's conservative approach, which may also be motivated, in part, by concern over routinely ordering HCG and test for patients as a psychiatrist. Someone that practices as an anti-aging doctor, or a hormone specialist, may have less cause for concern regarding this. Just thinking out loud . . .

    While I have thought about giving Dr. Crisler a call, I am always reluctant to add another doctor into the fold, as I have so many already, particularly one who is out of state. And I also dont want to thwart Dr. M's protocol before giving it a chance. Then again, I am aware of at least one other person who sees both doctors: MacDonnell, from the Meso board. And I tend to believe that my low T is a large part of my problems, particularly my body pain and muscle fatigue, brain fog, sleep issues, slow healing (of cervical radiculopathy and bipolar shoulder impingement), self esteem, libido and lack of impulse control.

    Thanks again.
     
  14. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    No call Dr. M and ask him how he feels your Testosterone levels will come back up if your Secondary. He just may have miss this. Or just have your family Dr. put you on TRT.

    All of this went away for me going on Testosterone shots.
    "body pain and muscle fatigue, brain fog, sleep issues, slow healing (of cervical radiculopathy and bipolar shoulder impingement), self esteem, libido and lack of impulse control."

    I have talked to a lot of guys that seen Dr. M and he seams to not want to give out Testosterone. I may will be a problem for him if he did not find it in the first place.
     
  15. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    My endo already gave me T gel. But I am wondering if I should approach him about the HCG. I could bring the AACE guidelines with me -- that may do the trick. I also want cyponate, rather than gel, mostly because of concern regarding absorbtion of the gel, as I have thick skin.

    If Dr. Crisler were local, I would do it in a heartbeat.

    Thanks for all your help, Phil.
    J
     
  16. If your cortisol is high at night I wouldn't think licorice would be a good idea since it increases it's half-life. Is this part of Mariano's protocol? If so I defer to him. He probably knows what he is doing.

    Have you plotted your variation in temperatures from day to day? Are they greater than 0.2 degrees F, meaning your adrenals are still not adequately covered?
     
  17. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    Hey DLA. My temps are pretty darned stable now. My basal temp is averaging 98 now, consistently. I'm a little low in the morning (97.6, but then the rest of the day is 98+), and there is very little variation day to day.

    I take liccorice in the morning, and Fo Ti in the morning and afternoon. At night, I take Phosphatidylserine, to reduce cortisol, which is believed to interfere with sleep. (Liccorice extends the half life of cortisol, which I dont want at night.) I have a serious sleep disorder, with major sleep fragmentation. I dont get delta sleep, which I am sure exacerbates the T situation, as well as growth horomone. That said, my IGF1 is pretty solid at 247, and I think T will cause it to go higher. The T may actually help my sleep as well. I've read that it often does.

    Dr. M was aware of the T issue, but as Phil knows, Dr. M likes to wait a few months before treating T. As I've said before, I am skeptical as to whether thyroid will meaninfully correct the T situation. Then again, I can appreciate a psychiatrist not wanted to treat everything at once, so as to figure out what is doing what. Most tend to work that way, even if Dr. M thinks outside the box.

    Phil, I dont have a GP that will prescribe HCG. However, my endo may; and I have another preventative medicine doc that may as well. But I would prefer to have one doc controlling everything. Then again, I want to feel better YESTERDAY!

    Thanks for the insight.
     
  18. wondering

    wondering Active Member

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    T def helped me sleep at first, first injection and I was sleeping like a baby.. then Adrenals continued getting worse and had trouble again.

    Guess wouldnt hurt to ask him again how long he expects you to wait and if he would be willing to start T.

    Personally, I agree that since you have a good dr. I would stay with him and not jump around. Rather continue to ask questions and see what he will do for you. That plus patience and you will be better off.

     
  19. jinxie

    jinxie Guest

    Thanks a lot, Wondering. I'm sticking with the program, and am going to resist the temptation of taking what another doctor provided to me.

    Upon further analysis, I think the most immediate problem is the need for hydrocortisone, as the Armour has increased the metabolization of my cortisol, which was already on the low side. I have a feeling that I am thyroid resistant, and it's going to take a large dose, and a lot of patience. I've read a fair amount of info on Dr. Lowe's site, and I seem to fit the profile of being thyroid resistant.
     
  20. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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