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Home Generators

Discussion in 'Off Topic Discussion' started by JanSz, Aug 30, 2011.

  1. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Hurricane Irene makes you think.
    My development survived rater uneventfully, except couple downed trees, some power loss.
    My house had minimal power loss, couple hours.

    The rest of the town and area not so lucky.

    About 12 years ago I have winterized my 700w generator that I have previously used on my boat, to provide light, when on overnight trips to Hudson canyon.
    Newer had to use that generator, until now. It started after second pull.
    Stopped 15 min latter, seized, we forgot to check the oil, there was none.
    My son was bailing the water in the basement (by hand), so it stood dry.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    How much backup power do I need:
    http://www.generators.smps.us/sizing.html


    [​IMG]


    I do not think the generators listed below have any "intelligent" load management capability.
    The included transfer switch, other than transfering power supply between line and generator allows weekly 12 min exercising of generator.


    ---------------------------------------
    The model 5873 with steel enclosure is a lower cost version that sells online for about $3500-3600. If you live in a salt air coastal area, and you are concerned of enclosure's corrosion, consider version # 5874 with aluminum enclosure, which typically costs a few hundred dollars more.
    ---------------------------------------

    ---------------------------------------
    GUARDIAN® 17/16 kW HOME GENERATOR #5873 / 5874
    by GENERAC® POWER SYSTEMS
    http://www.generators.smps.us/generac-generators17kw.html
    ---------------------------------------


    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003IT76DO/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

    Generac Guardian Series 5873 17,000 Watt Air-Cooled Liquid Propane/Natural Gas Powered Standby Generator With Transfer Switch (CARB Compliant)
    by Generac

    Best Price $3,618.00 (steel enclosure)(aluminum is supposedly better
    ---------------------------------------

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...n&ie=UTF8&qid=1314712175&sr=1-1&condition=new

    Generac Guardian Series 5874 17,000 Watt Air-Cooled Liquid Propane/Natural Gas Powered Standby Generator With Transfer Switch (CARB Compliant)
    Generac

    $3,787.04 (aluminum enclosure)
    + $231.99shipping



    -----------------------------------------

    Hire installer, compare installation prices:
    http://www.icastle.com/contractors/...did=11615&cid=9091322583&mkwid=C110810h000005

    http://www.servicemagic.com/servlet...th=srpath&newServiceRequest=newServiceRequest


    Great News, You've Connected with Mario J. Schipani Electrical Contractor, Inc.


    =======================================


    [​IMG]


    =======================================

    Note;
    These generators run on natural gas, same supply as for home heating, cooking and a dryer.

    20kw generator may be better, but may violate code,

    plus, possibly may not run good because it may run out of gas supply when all gas using fetures are run simultaneously.

    above may not happen often if ever, but it may violate varranty.


    I am repeating above after one of the comments I have seen, it may or may not be accurate.


    .
    ..
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2011
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    ...................
     
  3. 8x6dawg

    8x6dawg New Member

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    My residence is 4000 +/- sq ft. The 30 kw standby Kohler I have powers up everything. Most pricing doesn't include the transfer switch. Installed i was right at 13.5K.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2011
  4. smitty4

    smitty4 Member

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    SHEESH! What do you do for a living? :thumbup:
     
  5. 8x6dawg

    8x6dawg New Member

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    That was a tough pill to swallow but where I live (semi rural north central Texas) we loose power several times a winter due to ice storms and a several additional times due to strong thunder storms/tornadoes. My primary office is in my home so I need to be powered up.
     
  6. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    What was the cost for installation?
    When it was installed?
    Have you had any problems with it since?
    Generator I am looking at comes with Transfer Switch, costs $3,787.04 + SH $231.99
    Trying to figure costs of installation.
    I am assuming that that particular transfer switch is proper one, or should I expect contractor to tell me some story trying to sell another switch?

    What you are using for fuel?
    I may be limited with gen size by my Natural Gas supply line.



    //
     
  7. hebsie

    hebsie Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    ....Jansz, I'm a little disappointed, a simple generator? I've always pictured you having a small nuclear reactor just humming away in your basement...hebs :biggrin:
     
  8. 8x6dawg

    8x6dawg New Member

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    Answers inserted


    My local pricing was close to online.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2011
  9. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    I got an offer for installation, $12000 (twelve thousands) (to install $4000 generator, transfer switch included with generator).
    He would do me a favor and do the job for 8.5k

    I am in no hurry, will have to put some distance from Irene, first.

    Then, after about 5 years things are rather unreliable, I may not really have a spare power when I need it.

    But I got from him another idea.

    option #2
    I may install transfer switch with outlet, then connect (good size) extension cord between outlet and portable generator.
    If I forget about AC in time of stress, I probably do not need more than 8-10kw portable generator.

    ..
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
  10. boscogto

    boscogto New Member

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    When we built our new house we spec'd one in the construction plan and budget. Since we run mostly on propane we only needed a 12K generator transfer switch etc. Cost about $8K installed as electricians were already wiring house. Then just double propane tank size from 500 gallons to 1000 gallons.....we can run for about a week if we shut down overnights.

    Living in rural new England it's not a luxury....power goes out frequently and when it below zero safety/security for family and prevention of damage to house make it really necessary.

    Dave
     
  11. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    What is that you are running with your 12k generator?
    Or rather what appliances you are not running when generator is in use?
    To exclude some appliances may complicate wiring, since all that management is done automatically, possibly without anybody being present at home.
    The big items usually are:

    water heater and clothes dryer, they are need, so should be available on manual demand

    AC, Jacuzzi, can be excluded from generator loading, or larger generator may be need.

    I assume that 8k is for generator, transfer switch, electrical work and extra propane tank capacity. Sounds like good deal.
    How old is your installation now?
    Have you had some problems with it?
    How easy or tough was to resolve those problems?

    I am thinking that first 5 years, one wold not expect much problems, what about after that?
    Partial answer to above is weekly automatic exercising of the system, yearly oil and air filter change.
    But is that good or bad? I am concerned about wear and tear of system that is not very rugged, and have relatively short life expectancy.
    More rugged systems are 2-3x more expensive.



    ..
     
  12. boscogto

    boscogto New Member

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    Our house is mainly propane powered...

    Propane hot water heat, cooking, dryer, etc.

    Other than lights, computer, tv, well pump, and misc.

    We just don't turn on every light or run too many things at once.....though honestly never had a problem as nothing electrical seems to be high load.
     
  13. boscogto

    boscogto New Member

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    Our unit is 10 years old, exercises once a week, have it serviced yearly and has been fairly problem free....most likely I will look to replace it in next year or two....but cost should reasonable as infrastructure is already there.
     
  14. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    You said that you live in New Englad.

    Have you had any remnants of hurricane Irene in your neighborhood?


    .
     
  15. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Price: $3,916.00



    http://www.amazon.com/Generac-5887-...dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

    Customer Reviews
    Generac Guardian Series 5887 20,000 Watt Air-Cooled Liquid Propane/Natural Gas Powered Standby Generator Without Transfer Switch (CARB Compliant)



    Highly Reccomended, January 26, 2011
    By Scott Andrew Cohen "Big Spender" (Boston MA) - See all my reviews
    (REAL NAME)
    This review is from: Generac Guardian Series 5887 20,000 Watt Air-Cooled Liquid Propane/Natural Gas Powered Standby Generator Without Transfer Switch (CARB Compliant) (Lawn & Patio)
    Purchased for use with a 4200 SQFT home;


    I had researched purchasing a generator for 2 years before actually purchasing this until. I purchased the 20KW with whole house transfer switch. I would highly reccomend purchasing the unit with the whole house switch as you would not want to be limited by how many circuits you can have hooked up to the generator. I have a
    200AMP service with 42 breakers installed and a 100 amp sub panel with 8 breakers installed. My old main panel is now a sub panel and the transfer switch is no considered my main.

    We were lucky that our electrician is a factory trained Generac installer. The total cost of this installation which includes the unit and installation (gas hook up as well) was $7200.00. They first came out and installed the transfer switch and sorted all my netural and grounds in my main panel. Hooked the power back up and left for the day. The next day they installed the Gas and the 3 power lines to the generator as well as put the generator in place. The 3rd day was just testing and adjustments.

    The Generator is set up to exersize every Monday for 13 minutes as reccmended by the factory. We dedcided to utlize quite mode while the system exercises. Well that was a mistake. Every time the system was to exercise, the unit would error out and not start. THERE IS A BUG in quite mode. I did research online and come to find out it is a common problem. The bad news is Generac has not come up with a suitable fit other than reccomending to bend the choke plate. However, I changed the settings to run in normal mode and the Genrator cycles fine durning its weekely exercise.

    Other than the minor bug in quite mode. I would HIGHLY reccomend this product. It is the perfect size and price point is right.



    11 of 13 people found the following review helpful:
    4.0 out of 5 stars problems, January 28, 2011
    By Matt - See all my reviews
    This review is from: Generac Guardian Series 5887 20,000 Watt Air-Cooled Liquid Propane/Natural Gas Powered Standby Generator Without Transfer Switch (CARB Compliant) (Lawn & Patio)
    After initially losing $2,500 of electrical equipment when the generator started up and being very disappointed in Generac, the Master Electrician that installed it, who is excellent, found the problem. It had to do with the old part of my house having a bonded Neutral to Ground, which works when the Grid is supplying the power since they too bond their Neutral to Ground, however the Generator has the Neutral and Ground totally seperated which was causing an electrical build up with no place to go. Also, the older part of the house was not properly grounded which added to the problem along with the newer part of the house having a seperate Neutral and Ground with not enough ground. The Generac dealers that we contacted said they had no idea why the generator was frying my electrical equipment and the Grid wasn't and made no effort to assist me in any way. However, the Master Electrician, Alcorn Electric of Sikeston Missouri not only would not give up, but didn't charge me for all of the extra visits that they made even when they found out that it was not their fault or the fault of the generator they installed. They replaced ceiling fan remote sending units, surge protectors, and ground fault interupter plug ins all at their own expense. The only charge will be for the new grounding rods, however they rewired the house so that the generator can be used right now and are coming back to install the extra grounding rods without charging me for labor. I would give them 7 stars and the Generac 4 stars.


    In my house I may have some problem with grounding, when I was installing sub-panel for Jacuzzi (located on other side of the house from main panel, 50+ feet away) I had to add separate grounding rod (near Jacuzzi), otherwise GFCI for was tripping.

    I must remember this if I will ever get to installing this type generator.


    .
    ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2011
  16. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003UHW0T4...e=asn&creative=395093&creativeASIN=B003UHW0T4

    Generac 5863 Cold Weather Kit for Air-Cooled Automatic Standby Generators with 410cc or 503cc engine
    by Generac

    Price: $116.63

    Product Features
    Consists of a battery warmer with an automatically controlled thermostat built into the battery wrap
    When temperatures fall below an acceptable level, the thermostat activates the battery warmer

    Note:
    what about engine/oil warmer??
    .
    =========================================

    My electrical fuses panel is rather old.
    High possibility that electrician may wand to install new panel and then transfer switch.

    I see that the 17kw generator is coming with 100A transfer switch.
    It may be a bad move to use it.
    I would require complicated electrical work, fishing out what I want to be supported and what not.
    Better and simpler solution may be transfer switch that is capable to take out whole house and switch between line and generator.
    My house have 200A service.
    There is only about $200 price differential between 100A and 200A transfer switch, but less involved electrical work and more rugged equipment creates better value (I think).


    -------------------------

    Possibly even better would be to have just one electrical panel that does everything.

    Panel itself is rather inexpensive ($399) but (I think) it comes without fuses, then, when fuses are added, the set may become pricey.

    My panel is old, replacement fuses are hard to get, my daughter's house panel is of excellent quality (was told by her house inspector)
    More important, those fuses are not really typical for my area, may have a hard time getting them at local Home Depot or electrical supply store.
    I would preferably use her's kind of panel of similar generator switching capability (if available)

    [BGenReady Advanced/Complete panel
    [/B]
    http://onsitepowergenerators.com/generac-gen-ready.asp

    video of how it works
    http://onsitepowergenerators.com/how-it-works.asp

    [​IMG]
    ----------------------


    http://www.guardiangenerators.com/publicPDFs/0175200SBY.pdf

    DESCRIPTION
    The GenReady load center is a hybrid panel that operates as a normal load center and also allows
    for seamless integration of standby generators. It is available in a NEMA 1 configuration for indoor
    installations, or in a NEMA 3R configuration for outdoor applications. For installation flexibility, it is multilisted for use with multiple breaker manufacturers.



    GENREADY™ LOAD CENTER FEATURE
    • 200 amp
    • 40 circuit capacity with the use of tandem breakers
    • Multi listed for use with Siemens, Square D and GE 1” breakers
    • Dimensions are the same as a standard 42-space main load center
    Utilizes standard Siemens components
    • Protect up to 18 circuits, up to 30 with the use of tandem breakers

    • 10 circuits available for non-protected loads
    • Circuits can easily be shifted from protected to non-protected and vice versa
    • ETL listed for service equipment and consumer safety
    Models available with or without EZ Transfer Operator™ factory installed
    • Single panels are compatible with generators rated up to 125 Amps/30 kW
    • Multiple GenReady load centers can be supported with a single generator
    • Flush Mount NEMA 1 Enclosure or NEMA 3R Enclosure



    =================================================
    http://onsitepowergenerators.com/item.asp?PID=126

    The Wireless Generator Monitoring System
    [​IMG]

    Our Price: 329.00


    provides remote monitoring capability for convenient indoor observation. By adding this item a generator owner can observe generator function, set certain operation parameters and receive maintenance reminders. The kit includes the wireless transmitter, wire harness connection, remote monitor display unit, 120V AC plug and 3 AAA batteries. The addition of battery back-up ensures lasting operation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  17. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
  18. Shootist

    Shootist Member

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    Don't waste your money on a Generac/Guardian product. They are very poor quality. Kohler is your best bet, followed by Briggs and Stratten. I installed a Kohler 17KW just before Gustav and powered my 3000 sq ft home with 6.5 tons of central air perfectly for 5 days.
    If you have a 4 ton central air system or larger then look at the 17/18RES. Otherwise the 12RES would be plenty. The 30kw water cooled are very nice but too expensive in my mind for an occasional outage. Shop online and you can purchase your generater and transfer switch online. You can hire your own plumber and electrician and save a couple grand over a dealer. Before I "retired" as a Kohler dealer I was getting almost $10K for a fully installed 17Kw. You could probably find a 17kw (now 18kw) with 200a transfer switch delivered for under $6K. Plumber and electrician combined may be around $1500 depending on where your gas meter is located in relation to your electric meter. If the two meters are on opposite sides of the home I would always place the machine closer to the gas as it's cheaper to run wire then pipe.
     
  19. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.

    How big generator could I install in my existing configuration.
    I could easily reach generator from pipe that supplies my water heater.
    I just need to replace 1" elbow on top of water heater with 1" tee.

    [​IMG]



    I have a doubts about contractor that came to do estimate.
    He told me that, to run 17kW generator, I would need separate pipe, ran from gas meter and it would be 1" or bigger. Extending existing pipe, the way I proposed, would not work.

    Note that furnace is supplied by 3/4" pipe and the main existing pipe is 1".
    Furnace have max rated capacity 134000 BTU/hr
    min running capacity 70000 BTU/hr


    Generator : 17 kilowatts (kW)
    Equals : 58 006.40 btu per hour (btu/h)

    My total load will newer be a near 17kW.
    This size is chosen mostly due to AC

    4 Ton AC =48000 BTU/hr

    Well there may be some fat need.




    I got the 3.25 kW generator from them.
    Best price around.

    They also sell Kohler


    http://www.norwall.com/categories/Standby-Generators/

    http://www.norwall.com/categories/Standby-Generators/15%2d20kW/?prodbrandid=3&sort=featured

    .................
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  20. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    http://onsitepowergenerators.com/Kohler-20RES-Standby-Generator.asp

    Kohler 20RES 20 Kw Generator
    (Generator Only)
    Item#: kohler_20res
    MSRP: 5,089.00
    Our Price: 4,294.00

    Ships in 3 days

    [​IMG]


    Manual

    http://www.norwall.com/product_pdfs/pdf_file_35146.pdf
    .


    ====================================================
    http://www.norwall.com/products/Koh...ator-with-100%-Corrosion-Proof-Enclosure.html

    $4,539.00 includes shipping, no transfer switch

    Product Information PDFs
    http://www.norwall.com/products/Koh...tor-with-100%-Corrosion-Proof-Enclosure.html#


    Installation Manual
    http://www.norwall.com/product_pdfs/pdf_file_27646.pdf

    Parsippany
    Fire Prevention 973-263-7166
    Zoning 973-263-4373
    Building 973-263-4366 Terry Coletta (exhaust not toward the house, balance per manufacturer instructions, maintenance requirements) talked 3/2/2012






    ===========================================================

    Kohler 20RESL 20kW Air Cooled Standby Generator w/200 Amp Automatic Transfer Switch


    Norwall's Low Price
    $4,999.00
    Ships in 4-6 Weeks

    [​IMG]



    ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2012

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