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Introducing Vapp 2.0

Discussion in 'Post-Finasteride Syndrome & Accutane Sufferers' started by skorpio88, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

    Nov 10, 2016
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    This is a repost from my original post on solvepfs.com:

    I havent finished all the testing and experimentation for my revised VAPP protocol, but I feel confident enough in it that I want to go ahead and release it. Additionally summer is here, so i want to release it so that people here may get a chance to enjoy the summer!

    First a little bit of background; so back in november of 2016 I released my initial VAPP protocol (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1586&p=26196&hilit=vapp#p26196) which I had had good results with; however the problem was that the protocol did not yield consistent results. Furthermore, after 6-7 months of experimentation with it the original protocol, I realized that it wasnt really getting me further gains; however during that 6-7 months of research and experimentation I did learn of many different ways to improve the original protocol, and also I learned many new things about our condition itself. On that topic, the essential mechanism behind VAPP remains the same; which is to strategically use 5 alpha reductase inhibitors to treat PFS. That being said, I think that I have finally identified the precise mechanism behind what PFS is, and why 5 alpha reductase inhibitors work to treat PFS.

    I think that what PFS primarily is is that it is actually a problem of miscalibration of the androgen receptors and DHT levels. That's right, its not necessarily a problem of desensitization, its merely a problem with the androgen receptors not being properly calibrated to existing DHT levels. This is why 5 alpha reductase inhibitors work, its because they temporarily lower DHT which functions as a way to temporarily bring DHT levels within range of the calibration of the androgen receptors. That being said, 5 alpha reductase inhibitors work until they stop working; this is because they tend to drive DHT down too low if you use them on a regular chronic basis. The thing is, for a long time I was convinced that by strategically depressing DHT then I would be able to eventually "resensitize" my androgen receptors, however now I realize that this is not actually the case. This is why I have discovered that instead of regularly depressing DHT levels, you actually want to keep DHT levels constant while at the same time you gradually bring DHT levels down which in turn helps tune and recalibrate your androgen receptors to the proper level of DHT.

    In practical terms this is what my protocol entails:

    monday: 300 mg of creatine in the morning
    tuesday: 300 mg of creatine in the morning/25 mg of zinc and 225 mg of saw palmetto (half of a 450 mg saw palmetto pill) at night
    wednesday; 300 mg of creatine in the morning/12.5 mg of zinc and 225 mg of saw palmetto at night
    thursday: 300 mg of creatine in the morning/225 mg of saw palmetto at night
    friday: 300 mg of creatine in the morning/12.5 mg of zinc at night
    saturday: 300 mg of creatine in the morning
    sunday: 300 mg of creatine in the morning
  2. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

    Nov 10, 2016
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    So as you can see, I use the 5 alpha reductase inhibitors zinc and saw palmetto to gradually lower the amount of DHT, however at the same time I keep DHT levels constant by taking 300 mg of creatine every morning. By doing this I am able strengthen and familiarize the androgen receptors response to a given level of DHT. Imagine its like youre tuning a guitar; in order to tune a guitar you need a taut guitar string right? Well in the same way, in order to tune your androgen receptors, you need consistent levels of DHT. Below I will cover a few more points about the protocol:

    1.I have discovered through research with my original VAPP protocol that zinc and saw palmetto actually work synergistically with each other and could be potentially very useful for treating PFS. The reason this is is because zinc and saw palmetto have similar results, but work through different mechanisms, which is extremely important to consider if you want to understand why it is that zinc and saw palmetto can function synergistically in the way that they do. First of all, zinc only reduces 5 alpha reductase enzymes; thats it, thats all it does regarding DHT. Meanwhile, saw palmetto reduces 5 alpha reductase enzymes but ALSO it blocks androgen receptors. This is an extremely significant difference to take note of. The fact that saw palmetto blocks androgen receptors means that it can be used in a deeper and more powerful way to calibrate the androgen receptors in a way that using zinc alone cannot. Also saw palmetto can help tune the androgen receptors for both DHT and testosterone; as opposed to zinc which can only indirectly calibrate the androgen receptors for DHT via suppressing the 5 alpha reductase enzyme. Below is the mechanism in which I believe that zinc and saw palmetto work synergistically:

    -zinc reduces DHT and saw palmetto blocks the androgen receptors, thus theoretically if you use zinc then you will have less DHT competing to enter the androgen receptors, thus potentiating the androgen receptor blocking effect of saw palmetto.
    -zinc also reduces levels of aromatase enzymes, thus keeping estrogen in check. For some reason saw palmetto increases estrogen levels, either through blocking the effect of DHT/lowering DHT or through some other unrelated mechanism (this is why many guys experience bad effects through the chronic usage of saw palmetto since it simultaneously raises their estrogen levels while also lowering their DHT levels). Thus if you use zinc and saw palmetto together, you maximize the DHT blocking effects of saw palmetto while also minimizing the raising of estrogen brought about by saw palmetto.

    2.Saw palmetto is not bad in and of itself; rather its how you use it. If you research all the anecdotal cases of saw palmetto bringing about negative side effects; its due to chronic usage (3-6 months) and also heavy dosage of saw palmetto (either using lots of the whole herb form, or using the saw palmetto liquid extract gel caps). If you are microdosing saw palmetto in the way that I recommend then you should not experience any negative side effects.

    -For my protocol I use the whole herb form, do NOT use the liquid extract gel cap form of saw palmetto. Also as I mentioned above, I use the 450 mg whole herb caps of saw palmetto and I cut them in half so that I have a 225 mg dosage
    -It is not necessary to use saw palmetto if you are too afraid to use it, you can use other DHT inhibitors as well. You could probably just use zinc alone and the protocol would still be pretty effective. IE:

    day 1: 50 mg of zinc
    day 2: 37.5 mg of zinc
    day 3: 25 mg of zinc
    day 4: 12.5 mg of zinc

    3.The amount of creatine you need to take really depends on what level of DHT your body can handle comfortably. You want to maintain a constant DHT level that is slightly above the optimal amount of DHT which you can have without bringing about negative side effects. For me, I started taking around 300 mg of creatine on a daily basis, but now I have moved up to 700-800 mg of creatine (more on this later). That being said, for other people, their optimal range of DHT might be induced by taking 1000 mg of creatine, etc. For this protocol to work, you have to find the baseline amount of creatine that your body can handle.

    4.You don't have to use creatine, you can use anything that boosts DHT (like sorghum for example). I would recommend using creatine though because it is more straightforward and its potency, effects and dosage are all stable and there is less inconsistency and guesswork involved with using it to boost DHT.

    5.The way that this protocol works is that you are calibrating your androgen receptors to use increasingly large amounts of DHT. So when you first start out you will only be using like 300 mg of creatine (or whatever works for you) and then every week you will increase the dosage of creatine, BUT you will keep the amount of zinc and saw palmetto you use at a constant level.

    So the protocol for creatine dosage would look something like this:

    week 1: 300 mg of creatine
    week 2: 500 mg of creatine
    week 3: 700 mg of creatine
    week 4: 1000 mg of creatine

    There is no set rule for how much to increase your creatine by weekly, basically its something that you have to experiment with and find the right level for you.

    6.Likewise, when it comes to the proper dosage of zinc and saw palmetto (or whatever other DHT inhibitor you want to use); this is something that you need to figure out the proper dosages for yourself.

    7.I smoke cigarettes, drink on the weekends, eat whatever I want etc; lifestyle options dont seem to really impact how well this protocol works. Notice however that the days I use zinc and palmetto largely fall during the weekdays (tuesday through friday), this is done this way on purpose so that I dont disrupt this phase of the protocol by disrupting my hormones when I drink on the weekend. That being said, im sure the protocol would work even better if I didnt drink but oh well. Maybe the only food I might avoid would be stuff like avocado which lowers DHT, I dont think that the amount of avocado you would normally eat in a meal would seriously impact the protocol, but still its not really worth it to me to eat some avocado at the risk of disrupting the protocol. Still like I said, I dont think it would have a big effect but its just something I generally tend to avoid as a precaution.

    8.You can cut 50 mg zinc pills into four pieces but you cannot do the same with 450 mg saw palmetto pills. That explains the crazy dosing scheme which I use, ideally for all four days of the DHT lowering phase I would use an equal mix of zinc and saw palmetto, but for practical reasons this is very hard to do, that is why the fractions and dosages of saw palmetto and zinc seem so random.

    Results from the protocol so far:

    I have been doing this protocol for a few weeks now and here is what I have noticed:

    -incredible morning wood almost every morning, its rock hard and it lasts for hours as im laying in bed. When I get up to take a shower, my erection is pointing straight towards the ceiling. This is much better than the erections I would get while using the old VAPP protocol where I would have good morning wood, but when I stood up my erection would just be horizontal to the floor.
    -my girth has increased by a few MM, I have no reason to believe that it won't continue to increase as I continue this protocol. Hopefully my length will begin to recover as well
    -vivid dreams
    -my erection quality has increased a lot
    -I noticed a sharp improvement in my gains every week when I increase the amount of creatine I take. I suppose this is because due to how calibrating my androgen receptors allows me to utilize larger amounts of DHT
    -slightly increased acne

    I hope that this protocol can benefit everybody here, questions and feedback are welcome
  3. BalanceDéréglée

    BalanceDéréglée New Member

    Dec 20, 2017
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    Hey Skorpio,
    Did you keep following this protocole ? Is it still showing result ?
    Because if so maybe you found the cure for pfs. I don't know.
  4. skorpio88

    skorpio88 New Member

    Nov 10, 2016
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    I got some very promising effects from VAPP 2.0 but ultimately it wasn't the cure I was looking for. Subsequently my understanding of the nature of PFS has changed. Originally I thought that PFS is merely a problem with androgen receptor insensitivity, but now I suspect that the actual problem has to do with the hypermethylation of the genes for the androgen receptors.

    That being said, using a lot of the data and information gathered from VAPP 2.0 as well as the original VAPP, I was able to create a new protocol which addresses the hypermethylation issue and it appears to be showing some promising results, even more so than the original VAPP protocols. Take a look for yourself, you might find it interesting


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