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OTC estrogen reducer

Discussion in 'Male Health & HRT' started by Keg, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Keg

    Keg New Member

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    What is the best OTC for estradiol? Something that will actually reduce level.

    My last lab I was at 38... T at 1200 free at 20 I take 20 units mwfof 200 mg cyp.

    I have since lowered my cyp to 13 units to try and get t to 800..,
     
  2. KYinchampaign

    KYinchampaign Member

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    Not that I can give a personal experience with DIM, I've read fairly decent reviews about it also you could try Dr Crisler's Estrogen detox as it seems promising, I'm not sure about the effectiveness on reducing Estradiol levels though.
     
  3. Renholder

    Renholder New Member

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    There's really been a lot of discussions on this already. See if you can find it with the search engine.

    High doses of zinc seems to be the first choice, but you probably need to supplement with copper as well. I'm not competent with E2 control, but yours don't really seem that high. Even reducing testosterone could take you a long way.
     
  4. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Yes Zinc would help take 50 mgs of Zinc but to every 50 mgs add 2 mgs of Copper Zinc lower Copper.
    His levels are not that thigh he might do great on Indoplex/DIM if the Zinc did not help. Here is a link to the Indolplex/DIM I know works there is a lot of junk sold out there buy this from iherb.com
    http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0
    Here is a copy of a file I made about DIM.
    ==========================================
    ALL ABOUT DIM.
    Sure here is a few links that are all about it. But there are a lot of Co.'s out there selling DIM that don't work well. Indolplex/DIM is the best it dose not get killed in your stomach when you take it.
    Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a stable indole found in cruciferous vegetables which promotes a beneficial estrogen metabolism in both women and men.
    http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm
    in this link it's full of links about it.
    http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html
    http://www.jbc.org/content/278/23/21136.full
    If you have DIM in caps it's not Indolplex so to take this and to get it to work open the cap pore the DIM into a spoon add some Olive oil and take it this helps to keep it from getting killed in your stomach.
    The following is some links to where you can buy Indolplex/DIM.
    http://www.vitaglo.com/e5336.html
    http://www.vitacost.com/EnzymaticTherapyEstroBalancewithDIM/searchby-PN/searchtext-dim
    http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0
    http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0
    http://www.estrobalance.net/
    http://www.easyhealthzone.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=PP0108&click=71
    http://www.nbizz.com/longevityclinic/listings/213.html
    http://www.drugnatural.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DMOS&Product_Code=156497
    http://www.smartbomb.com/itindo9.ht...-E681-DE11-B7F3-0019B9C043EB&mr:referralID=NA
    http://www.ritecare.com/cgi-bin/car...al medicine&method=any_words&search=iti-75336
    http://www.naturamart.com/phytopharmica-pms-formula-with-indoplex-120-caps.html
    How to take Indolplex/DIM take one tablet 120 mgs at dinner time it can take 2 weeks to 2 months to get your Estradiol levels down it’s all about how high you are in your levels. What you need to do is get
    this down to about 20 pg/ml. When you get this low your night time and morning wood will come back so strong it will wake you up this means most of the time your at your best levels or what I call the sweet spot. Keep taking the DIM but if your wood stops your going down to low so just stop taking it. The day your wood comes back go back on the DIM but cut the tablet in half. If your Testosterone was tested and low but your not on TRT get it tested again you might find your levels came up some 200 to 300 points.
    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174
    Here is a cut and paste why Dr. John feels we need to take TMG with DIM.
    I have seen several studies which showed that while DIM improves the 2-OHE/16-a-OHE ratio, it also increases the bad 4-OHE. TMG, or its child DMG (although TMG is much better because it has already donated a valuable methyl group by the time it becomes DMG) will help flush the 4-OHE downstream.

    Taking TMG/DMG is important on its own, even in absence of DIM supplementation. But I would not take DIM without it.



    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The following is what Dr. Marianco says about lowing E2 with DIM and other things.
    My interpretation of the above articles is that:
    1. DIM blocks DHT from binding to androgen-receptors in the Prostate. This is a good thing - it reduces the risk of prostate cancer from testosterone replacement therapy.

    2. DIM does not stop the production of DHT. For DIM to do so, it has to inhibit the reductase enzyme that converts testosterone to DHT. The articles do not indicate that this is occurring.

    In regard to how DIM works, it blocks certain Cytochrome P450 enzymes in the liver which convert Estrogens to more proliferative, cancerous types of estrogens. This forces the liver to use other pathways, which convert estrogens to non-proliferative, safer, and less potent estrogens. Thus, overall estrogen activity is reduced by DIM.

    Arimidex blocks the aromatase enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogens, thus lowering the production of estrogens and thus lowering estrogen activity. There are other substances which also block the aromatase enzyme - including 6-OXO (an over-the-counter supplement), Aromasin, etc..

    Which do you want to use? Either choice is valid. It will depend on the individual's response, how easy it is to control estrogen activity, cost, etc.

    Other factors:
    1. Arimidex is by prescription and is very expensive.
    2. 6-OXO is over-the-counter, but dosing guidelines are not clear.
    3. DIM is over-the-counter, is relatively expensive for what you get. There are pitfalls - such as "DIM-complex" - which water down the DIM concentration by adding additives.
    4. Broccoli and I3C - both precursors to DIM can be used. But they require you to avoid antacids, needing acidity in the stomach to break them down and create DIM.

    In any case, you will have to monitor your estrogen levels via blood testing to determine how much of each you want to use.
    __________________
    Any statement I make on this site is for educational purposes only and will change as medical knowledge progresses. It does not constitute medical advice, does not substitute for proper medical evaluation from physician, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or liability. If you would like medical advice, please ask your doctor. Thank you.



     
  5. BJE

    BJE New Member

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    DIM and calcium D glucarate are possibilities. In another forum men recommend a product called Erase. I don't know anything about it but you could look into it.
     
  6. letstalk

    letstalk New Member

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    DIM I can actually notice. It acts to help get rid of excess estrogen so if you're already too high then its good to have. However, I'm not sure how it works long term. But in the short term it is definitely effective.

    I've heard good things about chrysin+bioperine and some other herbs, but these are more mild aromatase inhibitors... so if your E2 is already high it might take some time to notice an effect sans bloodwork.

    Dr Crisler has used or uses DIM as well. I believe he says it"takes the edge off" when his E2 is going too high, and he says he is a quick aromatizer of T.
     
  7. Sargovar

    Sargovar New Member

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    Calcium D glucarate worked well for me, though it would be much more expensive than pharmaceutical AIs in the long run. If one cannot get an RX for AIs or cannot tolerate them, it would be a good alternative, though. However, I feel that I get the best effect from micro dosing aromasin daily or almost daily. I have no labwork to back this up, only subjective observations.
     
  8. BJE

    BJE New Member

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    This is the problem with over the counter vs. insurance covered prescriptions. Supplements are expensive. I have been conversing with a doctor who specializes in sports performance. He is sure he can get my testosterone up naturally if I use his supplement program. The problem is that his supplements cost something like $250 per month. My Test Cyp costs me $10 per month and a years supply of anastrozole is another $10.
     
  9. Sargovar

    Sargovar New Member

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    Indeed. It would be great if I could afford to stay natural and optimize everything with supplements alone, but I don't see that happening. The most useful supplements are often the most expensive ones, too.
     
  10. Keg

    Keg New Member

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    Thanks guys....I will give the dim a try. I'm about ready to go back to the 20% cream ... Actually felt better on it and e stayed at 20.
     
  11. Pauly

    Pauly New Member

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    This is lef.org's recommendation:

    Chrysin: The bioflavonoid chrysin is a natural aromatase inhibitor (Kellis et al 1984). Bodybuilders have used chrysin as a testosterone-boosting supplement, because it minimizes the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. Although chrysin has low oral bioavailability (Walle et al 2001), its bioavailability may be significantly enhanced by co-administration with the black pepper extract, piperine, thus enhancing its actions as an aromatase inhibitor (Srinivasan et al 2007).
    Quercetin: One study showed that red wine inhibits aromatase, thus inhibiting the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. The study attributed this effect to the quercetin and other ingredients (Eng et al 2002).
     
  12. WhatTheF

    WhatTheF New Member

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    Out of curiosity, do you know what his natural supplement program for raising t naturally is?
     
  13. avacado

    avacado New Member

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    i've been using Natures way bioresponse DIM complex to dial in estrogen, follwing pmgamer18s protocol, and deffo noticed a difference in wood etc in the night. Also when i overshot the dosage I woke up with nothing and had really dry knee pain the next day until I backed off. Good stuff.
     
  14. qwerty42

    qwerty42 New Member

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    There is an OTC supplement called Erase that is popular with the pro-hormone crowd on BB forums. It is very effective judging by the blood work I have seen and the anecdotal reports.
     
  15. 4aminsomniac

    4aminsomniac Member

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    You don't need to take anything for E2 IMO. You need to lower your Test dosage. You are on steroids.

    Anyway, I've been trying Erase lately, 1/2-1cap per day. Seems to do something. But, really only blood labs would know for sure.

    Jury is out on that stuff.
     
  16. BJE

    BJE New Member

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    Here is an excerpt from an e-mail i received. In looking it over again it seems I was wrong on the cost. It is now for a limited time priced at $120 per month. Which I still think is high.

    The nutritional supplement component of the program includes:

    Fruit-n-Veggie Might: A great-tasting, powdered blend of whole food concentrates, micro-nutrients, and antioxidants made exclusively from organic fruits, herbs, and vegetables.

    Just Peachy: A pure, premium omega 3 fish oil that's so delicious you’ll want to have it for desert!

    Daily Dose: These convenient, supplement pre-packs will nourish your cells with whole-food concentrates and antioxidants, vitamin D3 and omega 3 fats to further enhance your Core 4 Program results.

    RemeD: A sublingugual vitamin D3 spray that's so effective it’s the next best thing to sunshine!

    The assessment component, which has been included in the program cost, features annual, at-home laboratory assessments for measuring your vitamin D3, omega 3 fatty acid, anti-oxidant, and nitric oxide levels. These results will allow you to custom fit your product dosage to your body's unique, physiological needs. And you'll have proof that your Core 4 Program is really working!

    Core 4 offers so much more! With decades of experience in health, nutrition, and human performance, we’re here to support and guide you every step of the way. Whether you have a few, quick questions or need an in-depth, private consultation, our goal is to provide you with all the information you need to reach—or even exceed—your personal health and fitness goals.

    So toss out all those random, half-used, and ineffective synthetic supplements you've been keeping in your cabinets and replace them with the four fundamental, food-based nutrients your body needs to succeed. The cost?
     
  17. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Guys I am on a lot of supplements and my wife thinks it's a waste for money and last Wed. she was in the Dr.'s office with me when I went to see him. He was going over my labs and taking about trying DHEA again.

    She jumped in and asked him if he feels I am not over doing all them supplements thinking he would side with her.

    He told her I am Hypopituitary my brain dose not tell my body to make hormones and if I stopped my supplements it would put me in the Hosp. and I could die. He told her that my supplements are top quality and I do need them all. Here is a list of what I take.
    ==============================================

    PHILIP’S MED’S
    • Aromasin or the generic 25 mgs. up to 2x’s/day or as needed.
    • Aspirin 81 mg 2x’s/day.
    • Alprazolam(Xanax) .25 mg. 3x’s/day.
    • Atenolol 25 mg. 2x/day morning and noon for heart beta-blocker.
    • Triamterene/HCTZ 37.5/25 mgs. Every other day.
    • Testosterone Cypionate 200mgs/ml. at .4 ml. or 80 mgs shot every 3 days subQ.
    • Novarel HCG shot 250 IU’s E3D the day before Testosterone shot.
    • Celebrex 200 mgs. 2x/day morning and dinner.
    • Hydrocortisone (Cortef) 30 mgs. total 10 mgs morning, 5mgs at 9am, 5 mgs at 1pm, 5 mgs at 6pm and 5mgs at bedtime.
    • Florinef .1 mgs. 1x’s/day with ½ tsp. of Sea Salt added to water 27oz 3 to 4x’s/day.
    • Cytomel 5mcgs 4x’s /day.
    • Concerta 18 mgs 1x’s /day.
    • Synthroid generic 150 mcgs./day.
    • Potassium Chloride 20 mgs every other day.
    • Ferrous Fumarate Iron pills 324 mgs 1x/day.

    Supplements

    • Twinlab, L-Arginine & L-Ornithine, 100 Capsules 1/day at bedtime
    • NOW brand ZMA 800mgs 3 at bedtime.
    • Copper 2mgs 1 at noon.
    • Dr. Cranton's PrimeNutrients 3/day.
    • Iodoral Iodine 1 tab / day 12.5 mgs.
    • I went with NOW brand for the following supplements do to a high levels on a Homocysteine Cardiovascular and below normal level of Folate RBC labs.
    • TMG 750mg 1pm and 11pm 2 pills a day.
    • Solary Super Bio C 2 x’s/day 1000 mgs. Total I don’t take this is my B vit.’s.
    • Biotics Bio-D-Mulsion Forte Vit. D 2000 IU's per drop I am doing 10 drops a day.
    • Thorne Research, Folacal, 60 Veggie Caps
    • Now Foods, Melatonin, 3 mg, 60 Capsules
    • The Real Food Trading Company, Himalayan Pink Sea Salt
    • NAC N-Acetyl Cysteine, Selenium, Molybdenum - 600 mg. 3x’s / day.
    • B-12 (Brain) Methylcobalamin - 5000 mcg lozenges. 3x’s/week.
    • Coenzyme B Complex 2x’s /day.
    • Thorne Research, Pyridoxal 5'-Phosphate, 60 Veggie Caps 3x’s / day.
    • I am taking 800 mcg. Folacal for low Folate RBC.
    The following supplements are for the damage to my muscles from Statin Drugs.
    • BioCitrate Selenium - 200 mcg 1x’s / day morning.
    • Krill Oil capliques 500 mgs. 1 with food morning mercola.com
    • Ubiquinol Capliques Featuring Kaneka's Qh (200mgs) 3x’s/day mercola.com.
    • Lecithin 1200 mgs 3 caps 1x’s/day.
    • Acetyl-L Carnitine 500 mg 3x’s/day.
    • Alpha Lipoic Acid 250 mg/day.
    • Life Extension, Super-Absorbable Tocotrienols, 60 Softgels One at dinner.
    • Life Extension, PQQ Caps with Bio PQQ, 10 mg 1/day.
    • Innate Response Formulas, Flora 50-14, Clinical Strength 1/day.
    • Now Foods, Super Enzymes, 1 pill before each meal.
    • Bob's Red Mill, Natural Raw, Wheat Germ 1 tsp full 2x’s / day.
    • Vitamin K2 Mercoloa.com one / day.
    • Source Naturals, Magnesium Bis-Glycinate One 2x’s / day.
     
  18. letstalk

    letstalk New Member

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    pmgamer, Im just curious how would you describe your quality of life in general?
     
  19. wondering

    wondering New Member

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    Correct, once you lower T from 1200 to 800 you will see a drop in E2 and it may be enough that you don't need anythingn else to lower it further. Don't add until you stabilize on lower dose and retest.
     
  20. letstalk

    letstalk New Member

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    I think this is good advice. 1200 T is supraphysiologic. And if that's a trough or even mid-way level then you're looking at way way more t than your body was designed to operate on.
     

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