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weak or no morning wood on TRT

Discussion in 'Male Health & HRT' started by CFIDS, Apr 15, 2014.

  1. CFIDS

    CFIDS Member

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    But I can get wood and perform if needed...libido is not great, sex is not overly enjoyable. Last labs were T=900ish, E2=38 BUT that was months ago and I've tweaked my dosages since then...

    CURRENT PROTOCOL (for at least the last few months):

    80mg T-cyp shot Tuesday evening, Saturday morning
    .5mg Arimidex taken 24hrs after the shots, AND .25mg taken for only the last 3 Fridays in an effort to curb what I believed to be E2 issues (puffy nipples, etc).

    I was considering just changing to .25mg Arimidex EOD instead but I had really hoped the .5mg twice per week would do the trick. Since I do not hav current labs yet, I don't know if my E2 is high or too low...I was hoping you guys could help me determine that?

    I know Phil has his protocol for how to deal with E2...I have it somewhere and expect he will post it again anway which I prefer. But I guess I need to know if I have no morning wood but CAN have sex and get some wood if needed then is that symptoms of low or high E2?

    THANKS!
     
  2. JanSz

    JanSz Well-Known Member

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    check
    DHT
    progesterone


    ///////

    E2=38

    Is highish but not overly
    anyhow, at this levels it should not be a main reason for ivestigations


    /////////
     
  3. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    CFIDS,

    It takes some work to get in tune with your body and be able to tell when your E2 is high or low on Arimidex or Aromasin. I did great doing 1/4 of a pill of Arimidex E3D and on days I felt high all I would do is take an extra 1/4 pill that day and keep on E3D. Keep us posted how your doing so we can try to help.
    =================================
    How To Take Arimdex or Aromasin and not go down on your Estradiol to Low.

    What I found is if you go to low taking arimidex, it's the length of time your to low, if your too low say for 8 weeks it can take your body a longer time to make more Estradiol. Bottom line is to know how not to go to low. Keep a log on your dose and how you feel men going to low can't get it up taking Viagra. I went to low when I first tried Arimidex and did not know about going to low or how one feels to low, so I was low a good 8 weeks. I did not know I was low until my next labs.

    The best gage I have found to control your Estradiol levels is to gage your night time and morning wood. At good levels or what I call the sweet spot you get your night time and morning wood back so strong it will wake you up and you can hang a coat on it.

    Most men do good taking .25 mgs or 1/4 of a 1mg. pill, I use a pill cutter to cut the small pill in half then I stand it on the cut end and use a single edge razor to cut this in half. A good way to take arimidex is by how high your levels are. I tested over 90 pg/ml so we tried doing .5 mgs every other day after 8 weeks my next set of labs showed it did not move below 90, test said >90. So we did .5 mgs. every day in about 2 weeks I got some strong night time and morning wood back after not having them for many yrs.

    I kept doing this dose and in 8 weeks my next set of labs said <20 back in the day labs were like this they did not have to good labs we have today they could not read lower the 20. My Dr. told me this looks to low to stop taking the Arimidex. The one thing I noticed was my wood stopped and stopping the Arimidex my wood came back in about 7 weeks my next test at 8 weeks was 24 pg/ml. So we went back on the Arimidex but the Dr. told me to take .5 mgs every 3 days I was on this dose not a week and lost wood. This is when I figured out going to low you lose wood. And the longer your too low the longer it takes to get levels back up.

    I stopped the arimidex right away and got my wood back in 4 days. I then after playing with the dose for a time found the best dose is .25mgs every 2 to 3 days.

    So lets say your labs are less the 50 pg/ml if your take .5 mgs you can go down so dam fast your miss the sweet spot of your wood and go to low. It's best with lower levels 50 and under to do less Arimidex .25mgs every 2 days if later your lose wood when it comes back go to every 3 days.

    I have found estradiol is the hardest hormone to control, it goes up or down from month to month some times I need .25mgs every 2 days other times I need .25mgs everyday most of the time I do well on every 3 days.

    So between wood and labs I do great and so do most of the men I have told this to. I keep a log on how much I am taking and how I feel. Doing this and reading back in my log I was able to tell when I was going to high or to low my Dr. lets me dose my arimidex by how I feel.

    Over the yrs. I have posted this story until I am blue in the face.




     
  4. BadassBlues

    BadassBlues Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Your E2 is the likely culprit, 38 isn't a ridiculously high number (as JanSz pointed out) but it is out of the likely sweet spot for you. Be very, very conservative with aramidex. Take .25 and give it 2-3 days, then check symptoms before trying another .25. You don't want to run your E2 too low.

    Also check DHT (also recommended by JanSZ) DHT/E2 balance is what generates positive sexual results, assuming everything else is in order. There are a lot of libido killers that regardless of your hormones, will negatively affect your sexual health.
     
  5. 52188

    52188 Member

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    Stop taking an aromatase inhibitor unless you have high e2 confirmed by an ultra sensitive test. I made this mistake when I started HRT and crushed my e2. I am still recovering.
     
  6. bigv

    bigv Member

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    I've seen this type of question about morning erections quite a few times and I don't get it. I don't understand why anyone would care about morning wood if they are functioning well sexually.

    I mean if libido and erections are good then surely that is the whole point of TRT? Or are most guys aiming to be springing boners at random like a being a teenager again?
     
  7. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Bigv,

    It's not about being a teenager again Rem Sleep Wood is about keeping your plumbing or penis healthy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocturnal_penile_tumescence
     
  8. CFIDS

    CFIDS Member

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    yes, Progesterone is low on last labs...DHT has increased over my natural level off TRT but still lower 3rd of the normal range on LAST LABS...remember, it has been months since I've had any labs and I've increased Arimidex dose since then.

    Thanks again...I wanted to be on a routine so I did the 1/4 pill E3D thing for awhile but then increased to a 1/2 pill when it seemed not to be enough...then I only recently added in the extra 1/4 pill...what do you think about me just switching to 1/4 pill E3D and then a 1/4 pill as needed up to EOD in necessary?

    For all I know I've run it to low now with 1.25 pill per week total...I need to get labs done, but my DHT I know must still be lower normal range. I like your idea of taking and then seeing how things are verses a standard protocol, but I've read that it is best to take it 24hrs AFTER a TRT shot so I'm trying to meet that mark too.

    I get gyno and feet/finger swelling and such...I intitally tried TRT for several months at 50mg E3D and no Arimidex and I still got these symptoms. Then I increased to 80mg E3D and added in the Arimidex at .25mg E3D and now .5mg E3D and an extra .25mg if needed.

    libido isn't "good" and sex isn't enjoyable as much as say 10yrs ago before low-T...now I ahve decent T level but low-T sexual enjoyment.
     
  9. BadassBlues

    BadassBlues Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Your body doesn't convert T to E2 on a schedule, so why should you take an AI on a schedule? The absolute minimum to alleviate symptoms as they present. Morning wood is a great indicator of your T/E2 balance. T/DHT/E2 balance is essential for good sexual function.

    By balance, I am referring to a T level that is high enough to give you free T/DHT at top 75-80% of range and an E2 level between 22-28 for most guys. Some guy's can have all of the above with T levels in the 500's, so it isn't a matter of just increasing testosterone. SHBG will change as your testosterone rises, that takes a while to stabilize. That is the reason to wait a few months after starting to see where everything has settled.
     
  10. 52188

    52188 Member

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    I got gyno with low e2, I suspect it has to do with prolactin. I also got massive joint and facial swelling.

    IMO there is WAY too much use of AIs on internet forums. Men need estradiol. Taking an aromatase inhibitor without confirming you have high estradiol is not healthy. I did this and I wish I could undo it. Chronically Low estradiol has nearly killed me. Check out Dr. Crisler's latest thread on estradiol being a neurotransmitter. You might eventually need an AI, but at least confirm this first.
     
  11. 1972

    1972 Member

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    BadAss,

    Given stabilization of SHBG and neurotransmitters, how long, in your estimation, does it take to observe the results under any protocol? I understand everybodyisdifferent concept, so, say MIN-MAX?

    Also, is it true that too frequent adjustments of a protocol which create hormonal swings by themselves may result in wood/erection issues?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  12. BadassBlues

    BadassBlues Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Before giving an answer to those questions, it's important to point out that there are some who don't seem to benefit from HRT regardless of the protocol. There are a few guy's here who are struggling with issues that HRT did not resolve. To give any kind of realistic answer, it needs to be made clear that often times the issues are more involved and require a more extensive analysis.

    If a person has taken care of the basics, nutrition, exercise, stress reduction and proper sleep (circadian rhythm), and is in relatively good shape health wise, then it is realistic to assume the following:

    Once a suitable protocol is decided on (sub q, IM, gel) and a starting dosing amount (and frequency if sub q), this should be static for at least 8 weeks unless some kind of serious reaction should occur. The moment you apply/inject that first dose of exogenous testosterone, your body is reacting on a multitude of levels. Neurotransmitters are stimulated, the HPTA is altered, the HPA (hypothalamic adrenal axis) is affected by testosterone levels, in short... there is a lot of instability going on at first. This stage resolves itself with time and the body responds by adapting to the new levels.

    After 8 weeks, labs will show where things have evolved to. At this point, changes may be made to the protocol to adjust for any unwanted side effects or less than expected results (AI, increase/decrease dose). I firmly believe that HCG is an integral part of HRT and without it, it is far less effective, so now (if it wasn't part of the original protocol) would be the time to add that variable.

    8 more weeks, re test, adjust as above.

    Repeat until desired balance is achieved then a 3-4 month testing interval should be applied.

    If a person allows for the hormonal pathways to settle in and follows the above, it's reasonable to expect a nice steady balance in 4-6 months.

    And yes, screwing around and tinkering is a recipe for failure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  13. 1972

    1972 Member

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    It is very interesting that you mentioned that testosterone affects adrenal axis. It is obvious how hpta is affected, but connection to adrenal axis is not widely discussed. If anyone can explain the mechanism how adrenal axis is responding to testosterone then I would appreciate it.
     
  14. matente

    matente Member

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    There was an article in the Pubmed feed not long ago but it seems to be gone now. The authors showed how DHT (not T itself) reduces adrenal sensitivity to ACTH.
    There might be much more going on and I would also be happy to learn more about this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  15. CFIDS

    CFIDS Member

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    ON last labs, FREE-T was upper range...my last labs were here: http://www.allthingsmale.com/forum/showthread.php?22829-CFIDS-Lab-Results&p=219551#post219551

    and here: http://www.allthingsmale.com/forum/showthread.php?22829-CFIDS-Lab-Results&p=219847#post219847

    I have been on TRT since August 2013 and have done consitent protocols for months at a time before making changes...I have not tinkered that i can tell.

    Good info, I think it is time for a change...perhaps I will decrease my TRT dose AND AI dose...perhaps go down to 75mg of T and .25mg of AI 3x per week or as needed...

    DOES ANYONE KNOW HOW LONG IT TAKES A DOSE OF ARIMIDEX TO KICK IN??? So if I get symptoms of E2, and take a 1/4 pill, when can I expect the result? within 24hrs?

    Yeah I have tried not to make too many adjustments and not frequently

    So what does that mean? The Adrenals then do not work as well or what?
     
  16. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    CFIDS,

    To answer your questions yes this is what I do I found the dose of Arimidex that worked day to day and when I felt high I just took an extra 1/4 pill. But if this kept up all week long I did more labs to see what was going on.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Thanks again...I wanted to be on a routine so I did the 1/4 pill E3D thing for awhile but then increased to a 1/2 pill when it seemed not to be enough...then I only recently added in the extra 1/4 pill...what do you think about me just switching to 1/4 pill E3D and then a 1/4 pill as needed up to EOD in necessary?
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    As for how long it takes for Arimidex to work it takes about 4 to 5 weeks to become stable in your body after this it works fast.

    I could have Panic Feelings and take an extra 1/4 of a pill and feel better in about an hour.
     
  17. CFIDS

    CFIDS Member

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    Well I don't know if you or anyone else saw but my E1 & E3 seemed low in those last labs and that was when I was still on the lower dose of Arimidex...BUT, I also take DIM along with the Arimidex...perhaps that affects things too? I know you were not able to do both together.

    I am going to just decrease back to 1/4 pill E3D (day after a shot), and then take a random 1/4 pill if I feel I need it...but otherwise, I REALLY need to get current labs done.

    ALSO, I find it shocking that Arimidex could really work for you within hours? I have been on it for awhile too so it is built up now and if that is the case, then hopefully I'd experience the quick action you did from any extra 1/4 pill doses I take if i get symptoms of E2. I figured the half life was 24hrs or more?
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
  18. CFIDS

    CFIDS Member

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    is morning wood the BEST indicator of having optimal E2 levels? How will i know for sure when I need to take an extra 1/4 pill of Arimidex? So for example, yesterday morning I did 75mg of T-cyp sub-Q, and then today, I would take my Arimidex about 24hrs later (which I've done)...BUT, I had moderate wood this morning, and have gotten it a few times over the last 3hrs or so...To me, that would mean I may not need the Arimidex, yet when I wasn't taking it, I got water retention, swollen breasts, etc...

    If the half-life of T is about 48hrs, and the half-life of Arimidex is 24hrs then you would want to take them about 24hrs apart right? so the Arimidex kicks in about when the T peaks?
     
  19. pmgamer18

    pmgamer18 Prince of the Forums

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    Yes this worked great for me until after my Heart Bypass Surgery it was all them Pain meds and the meds they used to put me in a coma that slowed down how my E2 meds worked. Now I needed to switch to Aromasin was needing upto 5 pills / day of Arimidex. Today I get by on 2 to 4 pills of Aromasin. As for E1 and E3 I don't test this anymore don't feel it means anything after all what you want to control is E2 and what ever happens to the rest of the E's happens.
     
  20. 52188

    52188 Member

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    Go get an estradiol sensitive lab test first. Taking an aromatase inhibitor when you don't know what your estradiol levels are is a recipe for disaster and sickness. How old are you? The younger you are the less likely you need an aromatase inhibitor.
     

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