1. Welcome to the All Things Male Forum. Please sign up and join the conversation. It's free!

Why Do Some Feel Bad With Hcg And What Are The Workarounds?

Discussion in 'Quick Q&A with Dr. Crisler' started by electrify, Apr 12, 2017.

  1. electrify

    electrify Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    5
    Have you noticed a few minority of people react badly to HCG?

    I feel like I'm one of them but I also don't want to atrophy my testicles.

    I have low cholesterol and it feels like HCG does something bad there and lowers my cortisol. I felt depressed and fatigued the next day after a 100 iu shot after taking a week off from it.
     
  2. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    10,758
    Likes Received:
    92
    I wish I had a good explanation for you. It's especially mysterious because you are only taking an amount roughly equal to produce a serum concentration roughly equal to normal LH level.
     
  3. electrify

    electrify Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    5
    I've wondered whether it could be due to half life differences between endogenous LH and exogenous HCG or just some other subtle things in the molecule. Cause LH is pulsatile but difficult to mimic even with the 100 iu daily protocol. And when I looked uo the half life of HCG it was like 24 hrs or around that time scale while LH is 20 mins according to wiki.
     
  4. Dr. John Crisler

    Dr. John Crisler Lord of the Forum Staff Member Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2007
    Messages:
    10,758
    Likes Received:
    92
    I'd say anything is possible, and your theory is as good as any.

    We have only begun to scratch the surface of this field.
     
  5. wondering

    wondering Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    1
    I think it depends on your current state. If adrenals/thyroid are strong, you probably will feel better. If not, perhaps HCG makes you feel bad. I can say this happens to me when I try to raise Thyroid or Test. If I am in a state of adrenal dysfunction, both make me feel worse. When adrenals are strong, they both make me feel better. When I feel bad, it is a long journey to being able to raise my T or Thyroid as adrenals take longer to fix. This has happened twice to me before and I am experiencing it now. I am struggling to raise my Armour even thought labs show I can use a bump. Regardless, I've posted this before...

    why does HCG cause anxiety? here's a response from Dr. Mariano a long time ago...

    ----------
    I can't give you advice since you are not a patient.

    However, I can give educational information about HCG (Chorionic Gonadotropin).

    The issue of HCG and panic attacks is much more complex than what appears on the surface.

    A partial account of the metabolic cascades involved is as follows:

    HCG acts like LH (Luteinizing Hormone).

    LH has several actions, such as:
    1. It stimulates testosterone production from the testes
    2. It stimulates the production of aromatase enzyme
    3. It stimulates the production of Cytochrome P450sc enzyme
    4. etc.

    Testosterone has several actions, such as:
    1. Increasing dopamine production in the brain.
    2. Increasing OR Decreasing Thyroid hormone production.
    3. Reducing ACTH production.
    4. Directly reducing Adrenal hormone production.
    5. Becomes Estradiol via Aromatase enzyme.
    6. Becomes DHT (Dyhydrotestosterone) via 5-Alpha-Reductase enzyme
    7. Promotes insulin sensitivity.
    8. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    9. Excessive Testosterone can result in an increase in anxiety depending on the metabolic cascades involved.
    10. etc.

    Aromatase Enzyme:
    1. Turns Testosterone into Estradiol
    2. etc.

    Cytochrome P450sc enzyme:
    1. Turns Cholesterol into Pregnenolone
    2. etc.

    Estradiol (and other estrogens) has multiple actions, including:
    1. Acting as a Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitor in the brain
    2. Reducing thyroid hormone activity by increasing production of Thyroid Binding Globulin from the liver.
    3. etc.

    Monoamine Oxidase Inhibitors (such as Estradiol) to varying extents:
    1. Increase Serotonin levels
    2. Increase Norepinephrine levels
    3. Increase Dopamine levels
    4. etc.

    Serotonin:
    1. Reduces the perception of stress - thus has an antianxiety effect.
    2. Reduces norepinephrine production from norepinephrine neurons - contributing to its antianxiety effect.
    3. Reduces dopamine production from dopamine neurons - if reduced excessively, this can increase anxiety
    4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    5. etc.

    Norepinephrine:
    1. Is the primary signal for stress
    2. Excessive Norepinephrine can result in anxiety or irritability/anger.
    3. Has inflammatory signaling functions.
    4. Can increase energy by promoting adrenal hormone production - if the adrenal glands are not fatigued excessively
    5. etc.

    Dopamine:
    1. Promotes a sense of well-being, calmness
    2. Deficiency in Dopamine production can cause agitation or anxiety, etc.
    3. etc.

    Thyroid hormone:
    1. Promotes energy production, such as by increasing mitochondria production and thermogenesis.
    2. Promotes steroid hormone production - increasing testosterone production - thus lowering thyroid hormone can reduce testosterone production.
    3. Promotes IGF-1 production - which does most of the actions of growth hormone
    4. Increases serotonine production
    5. Promotes insulin sensitivity
    6. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    7. Deficiency in Thyroid hormone can result in anxiety or irritability/anger
    8. etc.

    Growth hormone/IGF-1 hormone:
    1. Can promote a sense of calm and well-being - deficiency of which can result in a higher level of anxiety.
    2. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    3. etc.

    Adrenal Hormone production, includes:
    1. Cortisol
    2. DHEA
    3. Progesterone
    4. Testosterone
    5. Pregnenolone
    6. Adrenal cortex hormone production - particularly Cortisol - promotes energy production
    7. etc.

    Cortisol:
    1. Promotes energy - via gluconeogenesis, etc.
    2. Feeds back to the brain to reduce Norepinephrine production - resulting in reduction in anxiety.
    3. Deficiency in Cortisol production can result in anxiety
    4. etc.

    DHEA:
    1. Increases Dopamine production in the brain
    2. Promotes insulin sensitivity
    4. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions
    5. Deficiency of DHEA can result in anxiety.
    6. etc.

    Pregnenolone:
    1. Has a stimulant effect.
    2. Excessive Pregnenolone production can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
    3. etc.

    Progesterone:
    1. Has a calming, mood-stabilizing effect.
    2. Deficiency in Progesterone can result in agitation, tension, or anxiety.
    3. Has antiinflammatory signaling functions.
    4. etc.

    Insulin:
    1. Excess insulin can reduce testosterone production.
    2. Has pro-inflammatory signaling functions.
    3. etc. etc. etc.

    Immune System:
    1. Deficient antiinflammatory signaling may promote anxiety
    2. etc. etc.

    Nutrition:
    1. Certain nutrients are necessary to promote function across the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system.
    2. Deficiency of certain nutrients can promote anxiety in response to HCG as a result of dysfunction in these systems.

    Thus, when HCG causes anxiety, the story is actually more complex than just the resulting increase in Estradiol.
    1. If HCG increases Testosterone excessively, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety - e.g. by decreasing thyroid function, decreasing adrenal hormone production, etc - particularly if a person is predisposed to anxiety such as by having hypothyroidism and adrenal fatigue.
    2. If HCG increases Estradiol, it can cause a cascade that results in anxiety IF (a big if), Estradiol increases norepinephrine more than serotonin and dopamine, or if it results in significant thyroid hormone reduction (particularly if a person is hypothyroid and has adrenal fatigue).
    3. etc. etc. etc.

    The solution would involve examining all the involved systems and chemical messengers (neurotransmitters, hormones, etc) rather than just knee-jerk blaming only estrogen and attempting to reduce estrogen levels. The solution involves addressing the problems that are actually present (e.g. hypothyroidism, adrenal fatigue, excessive insulin, etc.) to reduce the risk of anxiety with HCG particularly when one wants to use HCG to preserve testicular size or to use HCG as a replacement for testosterone replacement therapy.

    Reducing estrogen levels blindly can increase the risk of multiple problems including anxiety itself - such as when estradiol more strongly increases serotonin than norepinephrine in a person.

    Lab tests and an exam would be necessary to help determine where the problem lies. Then solving the problem would not involve so much trial-and-error and guesswork.

    Yes, HCG can cause panic attacks in susceptible persons depending on the functioning of the nervous system, endocrine system, and immune system - the sum of which I call 'the mind".
     
  6. electrify

    electrify Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2015
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    5
    @wondering

    Thanks--Dr M's theory is interesting as well. I am indeed also dealing with adrenal (but not thyroid) issues. Adrenals/HPA axis stabilization is by far the worst and hardest part of HRT. I have never been able to dial that in. Ive tried HC and its so random! Sometimes it helps and other times makes things worse

    Backfilling Preg also does nothing for me about 80% of the time.

    Even tried ketamine treatment at a psychiatric clinic but that just caused even more anxiety and lowered my cort a bit. A month later im still recuperating from the anxiety.
     
  7. wondering

    wondering Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    1
    I hear you. Adrenals have become my biggest issue. Going to try HCG at some point soon, maybe that will help.

    I am about to begin weaning off of Ativan, which I have learned is not an easy thing. So trying to test that to see how it goes first. One thing at a time. If that goes well, will introduce the HCG.
     
  8. SDMatt2015

    SDMatt2015 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2015
    Messages:
    566
    Likes Received:
    35
    HCG makes me feel worse too. I have less energy and motivation on it. I stopped taking it several months ago against my docs advice. I also have adrenal issues and on Cortef so could be due to weak adrenals. Thyroid is fine on 3 grains per day per blood work and Dr Shallenberger Bio-Energy testing which he claims is most accurate way to evaluate RMR. The test is really cool because it also gives a lot of other very useful info like RMR % of fat being used for ATP (if not optimal it shows how carbs are messing up fat metabolism - overweight people tend not to burn fat at rest, optimal fat burning heart rate (useful to loose weight) , ATR - anarobic threshold heart rate and several more.
     
  9. 23Griggs

    23Griggs New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2017
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Any updates on this....i.e., inability to tolerate HCG?
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.